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  #751  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default INDEX...T206 REFERENCE/Reflections...the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 805.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-07-2019 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #752  
Old 07-06-2019, 07:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...


The Elite 11 with EPDG backs are not quite as rare as with the PIEDMONT 350. Nevertheless, the EPDG's are tough.
I acquired 8 of the Elite 11 with the EPDG back. Subsequently, I traded 4 of them. These 4 remain in my collection.
.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-08-2019 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #753  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...


Gee guys,

I expected to see some more Elite 11 cards. And especially nicer looking ones than mine. Usually, most of these Elite 11 cards (when found) appear to be Vg (or worse).
Probably, the nicest looking one I've had was this Lindaman, which I acquired at the National in 2008……


. .



Since I had two Lindaman's, I sold this nicer one because I was offered a price for it that I could not refuse.

There appears to be a certain fascination with these Elite 11 T206's....so, why not Show-n-Tell us of your Elite 11 cards ?


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-08-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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  #754  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:45 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Here is my group of Elite 11 cards. I didn't realize how many I had graded until I managed to get them all together. Looks like I have a few to upgrade at some point also.




__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #755  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...



Hi Ron

Now that's a really nice display of your Elite 11 cards. Thanks for posting them.

It is interesting that you are missing Tom Jones and Lundgren with PIEDMONT 350 backs. But, you do have Spencer with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

Experience has shown that these three Elite 11 subjects are considerably tougher to find than the rest of the Eleven with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

Good luck in finding Jones and Lundgren.


TED Z
.
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  #756  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..



Hey Ron

In your scans on Post #754 you included the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, which reminded me that the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 appear to be much more difficult
to find than their PIEDMONT or SWEET CAPORAL counterparts.
I'm curious if your experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 subjects was similar to mine ?


.
.


.
.



TED Z
.
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  #757  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:51 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Hey Ron

In your scans on Post #754 you included the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, which reminded me that the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 appear to be much more difficult
to find than their PIEDMONT or SWEET CAPORAL counterparts.
I'm curious if your experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 subjects was similar to mine ?

TED Z
.
Hi Ted, I found the Sovereign 150 Elite 11 cards to be more difficult than many of the other Sovereign 150’s. They are much more difficult than the Piedmont 150’s and Sweet Caporal 150’s, but very similar to the EPDG’s as far as difficulty. Dahlen Sovereign 150 seemed to be the most difficult for me which is interesting because Dahlen EPDG is the most difficult EPDG Elite 11. I also feel that Elite 11 Hindu’s are more common than other Brown Hindu’s.

Since we are talking about Sovereign’s and there’s another post about Sovereign’s and the original 150, which I don’t believe there to be any exact numbers, I figured I’d share my Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown list. It’s in 4 sections from most difficult to easiest. Obviously, this is only my opinion.

These cards are from a group of 150 only cards. No 350 backs were made with any back. These are the most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (11/150)
Ames, Red (Hands At Chest)
Brown, George (Chicago)
Brown, Mordecai (Cubs On Shirt)
Burch, AL (Batting)
Donlin, Mike (Fielding)
Doyle, Larry (Throwing)
Evers, Johnny (Cubs On Shirt - Blue Sky)
Pattee, Harry
Pelty, Barney (Horizontal)
Powers, Mike
Reulbach, Ed (Glove Showing)

These cards are from the Elite 11 card group. These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the second most difficult Sovereign 150’s.(10/150)
Dahlen, Bill (Boston)
Ewing, Bob
Ganley, Bob
Jones, Tom
Karger, Ed
Lindaman, Vive
Mullin, George (Throwing)
Schaefer, Germany (Detroit)
Shaw, Al
Spencer, Tubby

These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the third most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (60/150)
Alperman, Whitey
Ball, Neal (New York)
Bates, Johnny
Beaumont, Ginger
Bergen, Bill (Batting)
Bowerman, Frank
Bradley, Bill (Portrait)
Bransfield, Kitty
Chance, Frank (Portrait - Red)
Chase, Hal (Portrait - Pink)
Chase, Hal (White Cap)
Chesbro, Jack
Clarke, Fred (Portrait)
Clarke, J.J.
Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Green)
Conroy, Wid (Fielding)
Covaleski, Harry
Crandall, Doc (Portrait No Cap)
Davis, George
Davis, Harry (H. Davis On Front)
Delehanty, Jim
Doolin, Mickey
Durham, Bull
Evers, Johnny (Portrait)
Gibson, George
Gilbert, Billy
Hahn, Ed
Hemphill, Charlie
Herzog, Buck (New York)
Hinchman, Bill
Jordan, Tim (Portrait)
Keeler, Willie (Portrait)
Killian, Ed (Hands At Chest)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Above Head)
Lajoie, Nap (Throwing)
Lake, Joe (New York)
Leach, Tommy (Portrait)
Lobert, Hans
Lumley, Harry
Magee, Sherry (Portrait)
Marquard, Rube (Hands At Side)
Mathewson, Christy (White Cap)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn)
McQuillan, George (Ball In Hand)
Overall, Orval (Portrait)
Owen, Frank
Pastorius, Jim
Powell, Jack
Ritchey, Claude
Rucker, Nap (Portrait)
Schlei, Admiral (Catching)
Schmidt, Boss (Throwing)
Schulte, Wildfire (Front View)
Spade, Bob
Steinfeldt, Harry (Portrait)
Tannehill, Lee (L. Tannehill On Front)
Tinker, Joe (Portrait)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Left Shoulder)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (Hands At Chest)
Williams, Jimmy

These are cards that can be found with a Sovereign 150 and Sovereign 350 back. These are the least difficult Sovereign 150’s. (69/150)
Abbaticchio, Ed (Brown Sleeves)
Ames, Red (Portrait)
Bell, George (Hands Above Head)
Bender, Chief (Portrait)
Birmingham, Joe
Bresnahan, Roger (Portrait)
Bridwell, Al (Portrait - No Cap)
Brown, Mordecai (Portrait)
Camnitz, Howie (Arms Folded)
Cicotte, Ed
Clarke, Fred (Batting)
Cobb, Ty (Bat On Shoulder)
Criger, Lou
Criss, Dode
Devlin, Art
Donlin, Mike (Seated)
Donohue, Jiggs
Donovan, Wild Bill (Portrait)
Dooin, Red
Dougherty, Patsy (Portrait)
Elberfeld, Kid (Portrait - New York)
Ferris, Hobe
Flick, Elmer
Goode, Wilbur
Griffith, Clark (Portrait)
Isbell, Frank
Jacklitsch, Fred
Johnson, Walter (Portrait)
Jones, Fielder (Hands At Hips)
Jones, Fielder (Portrait)
Joss, Addie (Portrait)
Keeler, Willie (With Bat)
Kleinow, Red (New York - With Bat)
Kling, Johnny
Lajoie, Nap (Portrait)
Leifield, Lefty (Pitching)
Liebhardt, Glenn
Manning, Rube (Batting)
Mathewson, Christy (Portrait)
McGraw, John (Finger In Air)
McGraw, John (Portrait - No Cap)
Merkle, Fred (Portrait)
Murphy, Danny (Throwing)
Nicholls, Simon (Hands On Knees)
Niles, Harry
Oldring, Rube (Fielding)
O'Leary, Charley (Portrait)
Parent, Fred
Seymour, Cy (Batting)
Sheckard, Jimmy (No Glove Showing)
Shipke, Bill
Smith, Frank (F. Smith)
Stahl, Jake (No Glove Shows)
Stone, George
Stovall, George (Portrait)
Sullivan, Billy
Tenney, Fred
Tinker, Joe (Hands On Knees)
Turner, Terry
Waddell, Rube (Portrait)
Waddell, Rube (Throwing)
Wallace, Bobby
Walsh, Ed
Weimer, Jake
White, Doc (Portrait)
Willis, Vic (Portrait)
Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - No Cap)
Young, Cy (Bare Hand)
Young, Cy (Portrait)
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #758  
Old 07-11-2019, 07:09 AM
t206kid t206kid is offline
Jay Kaplan
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Ron, this is really great work. I strongly agree with the categories, although I think the top group is far more difficult than the Elite 11 group.

While there are a couple outliers from the Sovereign 150 and 350 list (Cobb bat on, Lajoie, Jones standing, Tenney, Criger, Clarke batting to name a few)...this is the best way to break things down imo.
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  #759  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


Ron

Thanks for sharing your Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown information.

When I put together my all - SOVEREIGN set (circa 2007), most of my experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards mirrors your list. The 150-only subjects
were somewhat tougher than the Elite 11 (with SOVEREIGN 150 backs). Especially the Schulte (front view) card. I think he was the last card which completed
my set.
As you probably know, I consider this Schulte card residing in the 150-only group. My theory is.....American Litho replaced Wagner with Schulte to fill out the
vacant slot on the printing plates. Schulte is definitely a short-print with respect to SOVEREIGN 150 cards.


150-only Series subjects





. . > > > >



TED Z
.
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  #760  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
…...Sovereign 150 seemed to be the most difficult for me which is interesting because Dahlen EPDG is the most difficult EPDG Elite 11......
Ron

As you well know, Dahlen (Boston) and Spencer are without a doubt the most difficult to find of the Elite 11 group. I post this following timeline of the transitional status
of these 10 players, which was approximately concurrent with American Lithographic's 350 Series start-up. Of which the PIEDMONT 350 backs were printed first. And, it
is my understanding that the EPDG print runs instantly followed.


Bill Dahlen...............Oct 27, 1909....signed by Brooklyn [this may explain why Dahlen (Boston) is really tough (and perhaps short-printed)]

Bob Ewing...............Jan 10, 1910....traded tp the Phillies

Bob Ganley..............May 18, 1909....traded to Philadelphia A's

Tom Jones...............Aug 20, 1909....traded to Detroit

Ed Karger................June 9, 1909.....sold to St. Paul Saints (American Association)
.............................July 26, 1909....traded to Boston (AL)

Vive Lindaman..........July 7, 1909....Major League career ends

Carl Lundgren...........Apr 23, 1909....Major League career ends

Germany Schaefer.....Aug 13, 1909....traded to Washington

Al Shaw..................1910....played with Wichita Jobbers (Western League)

Tubby Spencer.........1910....played with St. Paul Saints (American Association) [this certainly explains why Spencer is a real "toughie"]


TED Z
.
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  #761  
Old 07-22-2019, 05:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....How do you collect T206's?..Graded vs Ungraded..show your cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Graded or Ungraded......which way do you collect T206 cards ? It would be interesting to see the kind of response we get here. And,what the ratio of Graded to Ungraded is.

As many of you know, I am no big fan of Graded cards. Currently, my T206 collection consists of 2600+ cards. Last time I counted them, only 59 of these cards are Graded.

Here is a sampling from my T206 sets (and sub-sets) of the significant Graded cards in my collection

. ..
. . . .


. .
. . . .


Stay tuned for my Ungraded T206 pictures......


OK, so much for my stuff.....Show-n Tell us of your stuff; and, whether you prefer Graded or Ungraded T206's.

Thanks,



TED Z
.
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  #762  
Old 07-22-2019, 06:36 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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I don't have a preference of how they are graded when I'm purchasing. Because nearly all of my cards don't have any common Piedmont's or Sweet Caporals, I purchase raw or graded as long as it's a good price and you can't be picky on who grades them or if they are raw. I've never had any cards graded and I've never cracked any cards out of their holders. I'm not sure what my current numbers are but here's some numbers and a picture from a couple years ago.

758 PSA
320 SGC
23 BVG
457 UNGRADED

__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #763  
Old 07-22-2019, 07:02 PM
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Hi Ted. I now own your old Greminger, and very excited too!!

I own only graded. As we know, neither PSA nor SGC gets it right all the time; indeed, it seems as if both may at times knowingly get it wrong. Still, in a world where the vast majority of my acquisitions are online, I like the "comfort" of the slab.

Here are some pics
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:12 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Ron and Ryan

Thanks for starting off this informal survey, and displaying your cards.....great stuff.

Ryan, your BL 460 Elberfeld reminded me that I need to display the scan of my Elberfeld DRUM. The scan of its DRUM back is prior to me getting this card graded.
I no longer own this T206, as I traded it for a BROAD LEAF 460 Murphy.



.



Perhaps, some more guys on this forum will participate in this "survey" by showing and telling us of their stuff, whether it be Graded or Ungraded.

Thanks guys,


TED Z
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:19 PM
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My stuff is about 85% raw and 15% graded. Good stuff graded, and the rest of the set is raw.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:37 PM
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My set is 99% raw.



Only 5 cards are graded, all purchased in the last 10 years.



Rare backs that are not part of my set are all graded.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:31 PM
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Ted- I remember our trade (Drum for BL). Where’d we meet up?
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:41 PM
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I wonder if a day will come when a thread like this about vintage cards will be whisked away to a sub-forum about vintage cards, safely away from the main page, like the boxing forum.

My main focus is t213 and I'd say half are raw. I've been at it a long time.

For T206 I'd say about 25% raw. Here's a raw Keeler port. Obviously, in "collector grade".
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:37 AM
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My only 2 T206s so far and no idea if I continue or not. But I like big borders, nice centering and lower grades. Not necessarily in that order.
So far they are graded but that could change. And I might have too many projects I am doing at once, too.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:53 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

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Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Ted- I remember our trade (Drum for BL). Where’d we meet up?
Hi Mike

I took the train from South Jersey to Newark. We made the trade at a nice restaurant next to Penn Station.

Do you still have this gem ?


.


TED Z
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:00 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

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Jay, rats60, Rob, and Leon

Thanks for your show-n-tell.....great cards.


So far, we have 3 guys that for all practical purposes collect T206's "raw".

And, one who collects only graded.

And, 2 whose collections are a combination of both.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon....look forward to seeing you in Chicago next week).


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 07-23-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:16 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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I'm in the combination of both group.
Only a bit over 200 total, and a bit under 50 of them graded.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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v......................... PIEDMONT 150 ..........................v....................... .... PIEDMONT 350.........................v



OK, and here are some pictures of one of my UNGRADED sets....PIEDMONT. Included in this 520-card set are some cards which I think would get Ex to Ex-Mt grades.
Whatever, I've always been a collector at heart, and I'm very happy to have them in plastic pages in my binders.



Example sheet from my album…...150 Series cards
. .


Examples of the nicer looking Ungraded cards in this set...…

. . . . . .


Stay tuned for more of my UNGRADED cards' pictures. Meanwhile, let's continue this informal survey regarding Graded vs Ungraded T206's.

Thanks,


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 07-24-2019 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:09 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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Ted, unfortunately, I don’t.

I think our NYC trade was something else (one of the cards was a Hummel red hindu)...I think we met in NJ of PA for the Drum/BL deal.

Last edited by MVSNYC; 07-23-2019 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:11 PM
Rich Falvo Rich Falvo is offline
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I’ve got fewer than 50 T206 now and all are graded. I bought about a dozen raw and eventually sent them in to SGC for grading just for uniformity. They’re all lower grades, so it probably didn’t make financial sense, but I like them in holders.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:56 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

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Ted, unfortunately, I don’t.

I think our NYC trade was something else (one of the cards was a Hummel red hindu)...I think we met in NJ of PA for the Drum/BL deal.

Hi Mike

I took the train from Trenton to Newark, and met you outside Newark's Penn Station. We went to a nearby restaurant (behind the Station).

And yes, besides the trade we did for my DRUM card for your BROAD LEAF 460 card, we included a deal for your red HINDU Hummel.


TED Z
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:04 AM
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Ah yes! Newark's Penn Station...

Then another time, we met at Stout, next to NYC's Penn Station for another trade (Hummel and others).

Good stuff...I love trading.

Any cool T206 for trade?
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:27 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Thanks Steve and Rich for your inputs.

We now have 3 guys that for all practical purposes collect T206's "raw".

Two who collects only Graded.

Three whose collections are a combination of both Graded and Ungraded.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon....look forward to seeing you in Chicago next week).



TED Z
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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A complete SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set comprises of exactly 469 subjects. My set is missing Wagner; therefore, I consider this set "complete" with 468 cards.

With the exception of these 4 cards, the other 464 cards in this set are all UNGRADED.







And, here's a page from my album.




TED Z
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:32 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A complete SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set comprises of exactly 469 subjects. My set is missing Wagner; therefore, I consider this set "complete" with 468 cards.

TED Z
.
Hi Ted, Those ungraded cards must look great all together. So I'm figuring that you have all different card fronts for your set. What strategy do you use to choose what Subject goes into your set? There's maybe 20 percent of the cards that have 2 cards to choose from? Similar to your Sovereign set when you chose to add all 6 Super Prints with 460 Subjects and not 350 Subjects. I was just wondering if there was a pattern to choosing or is it all random and based on what is found first.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 07-25-2019, 01:07 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
Hi Ted, Those ungraded cards must look great all together. So I'm figuring that you have all different card fronts for your set. What strategy do you use to choose what Subject goes into your set? There's maybe 20 percent of the cards that have 2 cards to choose from? Similar to your Sovereign set when you chose to add all 6 Super Prints with 460 Subjects and not 350 Subjects. I was just wondering if there was a pattern to choosing or is it all random and based on what is found first.

Hi Ron

Yes, the cards look great in plastic pages. I have arranged all my T206 sets in the SERIES order in which they were printed. For example, the 150 Series cards are all included in the
first eleven (15-slot) plastic pages in the binder. And, they are arranged in alphabetical order within this group. DITTO, for the 350-only Series, 350/460 Series, and 460-only Series.

Ron
I'm not quite sure of what you are asking me here...…
" So I'm figuring that you have all different card fronts for your set. What strategy do you use to choose what Subject goes into your set? "

Regarding my SOVEREIGN set, I have included both the 350 Series and 460 Series versions of the Six Super-Prints (displayed here). Furthermore, in pursuit of a master SOVEREIGN
set, all my 150/350 subjects have 150 backs; and, their 350 versions are a work in progress.


.

.

............



My scans of Matty, Chance, and Evers with 350 Series backs appear to have disappeared (I will post them upon finding ithem).




TED Z
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Old 07-25-2019, 04:58 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Ron
I'm not quite sure of what you are asking me here...…
" So I'm figuring that you have all different card fronts for your set. What strategy do you use to choose what Subject goes into your set? "

Regarding my SOVEREIGN set, I have included both the 350 Series and 460 Series versions of the Six Super-Prints (displayed here). Furthermore, in pursuit of a master SOVEREIGN
set, all my 150/350 subjects have 150 backs; and, their 350 versions are a work in progress.

TED Z
.
Hi Ted, When I wrote the post, I was trying to find the right words because even when I read it back, it wasn't that clear. In your previous post you said that you are working on a Master Sovereign set and that the Print Group 1 350's are a work in progress. That basically answers my question. Your Sovereign set was built with Print Group 1 150's first. So, same question for the Sweet Caporals. If the same card comes in a 150 and 350 or a 350 and a 460, how did you choose? Was it a mix or were 150/350 cards all 150 Subjects. I just read what I just typed and it's still kinda confusing
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hi Ted, When I wrote the post, I was trying to find the right words because even when I read it back, it wasn't that clear. In your previous post you said that you are working on a Master Sovereign set and that the Print Group 1 350's are a work in progress. That basically answers my question. Your Sovereign set was built with Print Group 1 150's first. So, same question for the Sweet Caporals. If the same card comes in a 150 and 350 or a 350 and a 460, how did you choose? Was it a mix or were 150/350 cards all 150 Subjects. I just read what I just typed and it's still kinda confusing
Ron....very clear, now I get it.

You can call me a "perfectionist", because I was determined to first get the "150 Subjects" backs for all the 150/350 series cards in the PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAP sets.
It was fairly easy to do with the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP sets. With one exception, I waited many years to acquire the Eddie Plank card with a SWEET CAP 150, Factory #30 back.
For as you know, the majority of the available Plank cards have the SC 350 back.

However, it was a real challenge with the SOVEREIGN set. There are a number of subjects in the 150 series of this set, which were short-printed with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. Examples
that immediately come to mind are Flick and Wiltse (these two guys were the last ones of which I found their "150 Subjects" back. For a long time, Flick and Wiltse were in my set with "350 Subjects" backs And, that really "bugged" me

Anyhow, I'm not interested in trying for a master PIEDMONT, or SWEET CAPORAL (Fac. #30) sets. The SOVEREIGN set, though, is another story as I need to get 476 cards to complete
the "master". Currently, I have 444 cards.


TED Z
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Old 07-26-2019, 01:52 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Ron....very clear, now I get it.

You can call me a "perfectionist", because I was determined to first get the "150 Subjects" backs for all the 150/350 series cards in the PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAP sets.
It was fairly easy to do with the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP sets. With one exception, I waited many years to acquire the Eddie Plank card with a SWEET CAP 150, Factory #30 back.
For as you know, the majority of the available Plank cards have the SC 350 back.

However, it was a real challenge with the SOVEREIGN set. There are a number of subjects in the 150 series of this set, which were short-printed with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. Examples
that immediately come to mind are Flick and Wiltse (these two guys were the last ones of which I found their "150 Subjects" back. For a long time, Flick and Wiltse were in my set with "350 Subjects" backs And, that really "bugged" me

Anyhow, I'm not interested in trying for a master PIEDMONT, or SWEET CAPORAL (Fac. #30) sets. The SOVEREIGN set, though, is another story as I need to get 476 cards to complete
the "master". Currently, I have 444 cards.


TED Z
.
Thanks Ted. I was trying to get a complete visual look of your collection without actually looking at it. I just checked my Flick and Wiltse and they are Sovereign 350's lol. I'm currently at 320 in my Sovereign set.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 07-26-2019, 09:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Thanks Ted. I was trying to get a complete visual look of your collection without actually looking at it. I just checked my Flick and Wiltse and they are Sovereign 350's lol. I'm currently at 320 in my Sovereign set.

RON

I'm not at all surprised that your Flick and Wiltse are Sovereign 350's.

Only 82 more subjects to complete your basic all - SOVEREIGN set.
Perhaps, I can add to your set. Send me a list of the cards you need.


TED Z
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Here is the 1st page of the 350/460 Series cards in my set. This series of 66 subjects were printed with the apple-green backs. Why American Lithographic (ALC) changed
the ink color when they printed the backs of this group of 66 subjects remains a mystery. It appears to me that ALC took their last 350 series pre-printed sheets of T206's
and decided to extend them into the 460 series which resulted in 110 subjects (350 Subjects + 110 Subjects = 460 Subjects).

Shown below is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Note: the Six Super-Prints are double-printed on this simulated sheet).









Simulated sheet

v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v










Looking for more inputs to this informal survey. So far, we have.....

Three collectors, that for all practical purposes, collect T206's "raw".

Two who collect only Graded.

Three whose collections are a combination of both Graded and Ungraded.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon....look forward to seeing you in Chicago next week).


TED Z
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Old 07-27-2019, 08:22 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Here's the 2nd page of the 3 pages which include 45 of the 46 subjects which comprise the 460-only series of the SOVEREIGN set. My Chance (batting) card is Graded.
Printed concurrently with this 460 Series are the Six Super-Prints which I have displayed in Post #781 in this thread.






.



Hey guys,
Still looking for some inputs here, as to whether you prefer GRADED or UNGRADED T206's.


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 07-27-2019 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:22 PM
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I like vintage cards ungraded, and T206's are so plentiful they can still be easily obtained raw...and they can look wonderful in collector condition.

Brian
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Old 07-28-2019, 08:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Thanks Brian for your input.


Our current T206 collecting UNGRADED vs GRADED tally is...…..

We now have 4 guys who T206 collection are strictly UNGRADED.

Two who collect only GRADED.

Three whose collections are a combination of both GRADED and UNGRADED.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon....look forward to seeing you in Chicago next week).


Let's see if a few more T206 collectors will chime in here.


TED Z
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:42 PM
Bill77 Bill77 is offline
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So far I have purchased all 61 of my T206's raw. I had the first 5 graded but stopped because it was taking away too much money from my already limited card funds. Here are some of my cards including a half hearted attempt at a back run.
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:38 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

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So far I have purchased all 61 of my T206's raw. I had the first 5 graded but stopped because it was taking away too much money from my already limited card funds. Here are some of my cards including a half hearted attempt at a back run.

Hi Bill

Thanks for your input, and displaying your T206's. Good luck collecting these "gems".


OK, here is the latest tally...…

We now have 5 guys whose T206 cards are strictly UNGRADED.

Two who collect only GRADED T206's.

Three whose collections are a mixture of both GRADED and UNGRADED T206's.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon....look forward to seeing you in Chicago next week).


Let's see if a few more T206 collectors will chime in here.


TED Z
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:24 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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I'm not a t206 collector, but this thread is amazing and I salute those of you doing the research.

Doug
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:31 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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A full pack of cigarettes....any one on this forum interested in smoking a 108 year old American Beauty




My AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run is 95% complete with 70 of the 74 subjects. I do have an aversion to GRADED cards. However, I have to admit that 27%
of the cards in my AB 460 sub-set are GRADED. That is by far the highest percentage of cards GRADED in any one of my T206 sets.

Hey guys, I acquire these AB 460's any way I can find them. Certain ones in this run are very-very difficult. I definitely say AB 460 cards are very under-rated.**



..

. .





Hey Guys,
Check-out the Grade on my Chance card.....how can PSA determine that an AMERICAN BEAUTY card is "trimmed" ?
And, especially the AB 460 cards which are usually narrower than the AB 350 cards.
I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this question ? ?


** Note....the Exclusive 12 subjects are not as tough to find with the AB 460 backs as are the other 62 subjects in this group.


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 07-29-2019 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:03 PM
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70/74 of AB460 is a great run so far. Good luck finding the last 4...Here are a couple from this series, an ex12 Devore and a Fred Payne... I don't really know why they are labeling the Chance batting trimmed. Looks okay to me.
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File Type: jpg t206devoreab460b.jpg (77.4 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg t206payneab460672.jpg (59.8 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg t206payneab460b675.jpg (51.9 KB, 119 views)
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  #795  
Old 07-29-2019, 07:52 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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I've never understood when PSA calls an American Beauty trimmed. I usually use it to my advantage and buy PSA graded cards with the trimmed authentic or off center qualifier at a discount but only if they look untrimmed to me.
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
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  #796  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:04 PM
t206kid t206kid is offline
Jay Kaplan
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Ted, remind me the last 4 AB460s you're missing!? So crazy to be that far on such a tough back subset.
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  #797  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Hey Jay

The 4 dudes to complete my AB 460 run are...…

Camnitz (arms over head)

L. Doyle (portrait)

McGraw (portrait with cap)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)


TED Z
.
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  #798  
Old 08-03-2019, 08:44 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey Jay

The 4 dudes to complete my AB 460 run are...…

Camnitz (arms over head)

L. Doyle (portrait)

McGraw (portrait with cap)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
.

Jay

I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run in 2005. I attained my current 70-card run 4 years ago. And, these elusive 4 listed here have been un-attainable for me.

You are great at finding tough T206's like these, so keep me in mind.

We've done some nice trades in the past, and hopefully we can do some more with respect to any of these four.

Thanks, Guy


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-04-2019 at 09:58 PM.
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  #799  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:55 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
70/74 of AB460 is a great run so far. Good luck finding the last 4...Here are a couple from this series, an ex12 Devore and a Fred Payne... I don't really know why they are labeling the Chance batting trimmed. Looks okay to me.

Hi Rob

Your AB 460 Payne is pretty nice. Payne is one of a number of AB 460 cards that are very tough to find. I will search my records to see which AB 460 cards were really difficult
in the process of putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run. I will post the list of these "toughies" in this thread...…stay tuned.

Thanks for posting your cards here.

TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-04-2019 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #800  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:55 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
I've never understood when PSA calls an American Beauty trimmed. I usually use it to my advantage and buy PSA graded cards with the trimmed authentic or off center qualifier at a discount but only if they look untrimmed to me.

Ron

We think alike..... I do the same as you, regarding "A" graded AMERICAN BEAUTY cards (especially AB 460 cards).


TED Z
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