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#51
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Koufax is being taken quite seriously. The issue is that no mathematical argument has him coming out on top; to do so relies on emotional arguments like this one that dismiss stats, the old kind or the new kind. Those looking for some subjective metrics to support their conclusions are never going to buy into the Koufax claim
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#52
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#53
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#54
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Well, sure. But they're ignoring all the places and times he wasn't great. They're ignoring all the factors that helped make him great - the unique deadness of Chavez Ravine, the gigantic strike zone that coincided with his best run, the height of the mound, and so on. Yeah, it was basically impossible to hit against him under those conditions. But the numbers show he was good - not great, but good - everywhere else.
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#55
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#56
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It's tough to compare across eras, but I think if you move Grove and Walter into the 1960's, NOBODY would touch them. If WAR is an important stat to you, check this out: out of an 8-season stretch, Grove was the top WAR pitcher for 6 of them. One season he came in second to Carl Hubbell, and in 1934 while Dizzy Dean was tops, Grove's arm went dead. The next season he went from a fastballer to a curveballer and was tops in WAR again. In Koufax' four peak years, he was tops in WAR twice. Last edited by earlywynnfan; 07-11-2020 at 07:53 PM. |
#57
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#58
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Really? Well, that's news to me. Maybe I've been out of the loop. The way I've always seen it, is that that ball was of course much livelier than the dead ball of "The Dead Ball Era". Today's ball is just hopped up. Boring home runs, and the game almost looks like a video game. The only thing that might be exciting about it, to me, is there can sometimes be some excellent infield play.
Last edited by jgannon; 07-11-2020 at 08:29 PM. |
#59
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WHIP Koufax 1.106 Grove 1.278 FIP Koufax 2.69 Grove 3.62 K/9 Koufax 9.3 Grove 5.2 K/BB Koufax 2.93 Grove 1.91 Shutouts Koufax 40 Grove 35 Strikeouts 2396 Grove 2266 No Hitters Koufax 4 Grove 0 All the stats support Koufax except wins which are a team based stat and longevity. Grove played on loaded offensive teams for most of his career. Foxx, Cochrane and Simmons in Philly and Williams, Foxx and Cronin in Boston. From 1958-1966 Koufax had a top 10 offensive player 4 times in 9 years, Wally Moon was 8th in 1958, Tommy Davis 4th in 1962, Maury Wills 5th in 1962 and Jim Gilliam 9th in 1963. Koufax was better than Grove and it is not close. |
#60
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Best Lefty.....
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Reprising my earlier post here. Grove and Plank pitched in different eras. And, in my way of thinking, it's almost impossible to compare whose performance was better. Yes, they both pitched for 17 years. And, both of them had 8 seasons in which they Won 20+ games. Plank pitched twice as many Shut-Out games as Grove, etc., etc. I could on playing this silly numbers game. But, what matters most is that both these guys were "giants" on the mound in their particular era. Plank with Connie Mack, and Grove's best years with Connie Mack. Quote:
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#61
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#62
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It is not revisionist history to say he is not the greatest lefty of all time. He has never been the consensus pick (there isn't a consensus pick at all, really). |
#63
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Kershaw > Koufax. Spahn > Koufax. Johnson > Koufax. ERA+ Grove 148 Koufax 131 ERA crowns Grove 9 Koufax 5 FIP crowns Grove 8 Koufax 6 WHIP crowns Grove 5 Koufax 4 Strikeout Crowns Grove 7 Koufax 4 Innings Pitched Grove 3,940 Koufax 2,324 WAR Grove 106.7 Koufax 48.9 Last edited by G1911; 07-11-2020 at 09:06 PM. |
#64
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Again, my original advocating for Koufax was not to definitively say he was the greatest lefty of all time. It's really impossible to say who was "the best". Why do we have to have a "best" anyway? At any rate, you have the different eras and so many different factors affecting how the players performed. I just think there was a bit of disparagement toward Koufax on the thread, and that Koufax wasn't getting his due. Last edited by jgannon; 07-11-2020 at 09:34 PM. |
#65
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You'd be hard pressed to find a pitcher lefty or righty who had as good a season as this man did in 1972...and with a team that won only 59 games no less.
Steve Carlton 1972 Topps #751 BVG 7 NM.jpg
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#66
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It is hardly disparagement to say he is not the best lefty ever. |
#67
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#68
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Big Unit, no question. Regular season dominance aside, He put the Diamondbacks on his back and carried them to a World Title against the early 2000’s Yankees. The freakin Diamondbacks!
.....and he basically did what he did his entire career against Juicers. Last edited by thecomebacker; 07-11-2020 at 10:53 PM. |
#69
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I agree with taking the playoffs (and titles) a lot more into consideration too.
This obviously greatly favors Koufax. In addition to the other numbers and WS championships mentioned, he gave up just one earned run each in his only playoff losses. Unreal. Lefty Grove was great in the postseason too. On the flip side, Randy Johnson had the one dominating run for two playoff series and got the one ring from it. Other than that, he struggled badly in the postseason and went 2-9. Carlton would labor in the playoffs and walk some guys that he normally wouldn't, and was 6-6 with a 3.26. And naturally Kershaw's awful playoff troubles don't need further mention. Then there's Spahn, who naturally was the exact same guy in the playoffs as otherwise. That guy was a robot set to win 6 of every 10 games and give you a 3.00 ERA, regardless of what planet he was on. |
#70
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#71
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Why didn't Sandy put up a 1.37 ERA anywhere he pitched more than twice except Dodger Stadium? Of all the ballparks he pitched in 5 or more times, why did he have an ERA over 3.50 in almost half of them (6 of 13)? Did he just not try as hard at Crosley Field?
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#72
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I don't like WAR but sometimes the weirdness does have an explanation. |
#73
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__________________
Collect Vikings, Twins, Vintage HOF and also Off-Center vintage. ***A journey of a 1,000 miles begins with a single card! -Cardfusious Trade Page: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/187700522@N03/ Recent positve trades with: Brian Van Horn, frank bmd, nkesterke09, ajg, esehombre, mrmantlecollector, KC Doughboy, gregr2,bn2cardz, sycks22 |
#74
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i think this thread has got me thinking more about Spahn, especially with those missed prime years.
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#75
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Hahaha. Koufax was good not great. What a joke. Evidently you never saw him pitch.
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Tony Biviano |
#76
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You can't assume all those extra wins from the missed military service for Spahn though.
He still ended up logging about 5200 innings. Without the military service, his arm could've easily worn down a few years earlier. |
#77
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Whitey Ford had a better career ERA than Koufax, better WAR, and better win loss differential.
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#78
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He's saying he was good, not great, on the road. Looking at his road statistics, if Koufax was great on the road, there are a LOT of great pitchers. His numbers outside of LA are not particularly impressive, in the context of league averages.
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#79
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Name another pitcher who retired with 27 wins and 27 complete games in his last year. He decided not to risk any more injuries to his left arm. The guy was getting better every year. You guys get carried away with those crazy stats. By the way since he was ONLY a GOOD pitcher, name five other pitchers who you deem better. Be careful.
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Tony Biviano |
#80
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Who would you want to see pitch?
Question: What's it like trying to hit off of Sandy Koufax?
Answer: "Ever try drinking coffee with a fork?" --- Willie Stargell Besides believing Koufax was the best lefty ever (with Grove an extremely close 2nd ), if I could choose to see only one pitcher, out of all those mentioned pitch a ballgame, Koufax would be the clear and easy choice.
__________________
Focusing on Vintage Sports & Non-Sports Photography for over 25 Years. |
#81
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Mickey Lolich deserves honorable mention. He was the American League all time left handed strikeout king for decades until CC Sabathia took over. His 1968 World Series performance is legendary with 3 complete game wins, 2 hits including the only homer of his career and he beat Bob Gibson on the road in game 7 with a complete game on 2 days rest!!! In the bottom of the 6th with the score tied 0-0 he picked Lou Brock and Curt Flood off first base. Incredible performance!
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#82
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Best Southpaws of all-time
1. Grove
2. Kershaw 3. Johnson 4. Carlton 5. Koufax 6. Spahn Grove - 9 ERA titles is sheer dominance over an extended period of time - no questions asked. Kershaw - possibly on pace to be the best ever but still falls somewhat short to Grove. His WHIP; K/BB & ERA numbers are incredible. Johnson - took him a while to figure it out, but when he did, his peak value numbers are top 5-10 of all-time for ALL pitchers Carlton - great longevity & peak value but a few inexplicable very poor seasons (including 20 losses) place him a notch below Johnson Koufax - best peak value lefty of all-time but 5 dominating seasons just doesn’t cut it with regard to being the best ever. You can say all you want IF he had longevity he would be the best ever.....true. But, if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. “IFs” simply don’t cut it in the world of rankings. Spahn - VERY underrated. Most southpaw wins of all-time. Issue with Spahn is he could not dominate a lineup at the level of the 5 pitchers above him. |
#83
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From 1962-1966, Sandy was 17-2 against the Mets, and 14-2 against the Colts/Astros, for example. He was aided elsewhere by the general watered-down talent level the expansions had across the leagues. I'll go with Grove as the best all-time. But if I was a team owner and could have any lefty for his entire career, I'd take Spahn and sleep well at night. Last edited by Mark17; 07-12-2020 at 08:02 PM. |
#84
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Gene Mauch when asked if Koufax was the best lefty he ever saw: "The best righty too". Hank Aaron: "You talk about the Gibsons the Drysdales and the Spahns. And as good as those guys were, Koufax was just a step ahead of them. John Roseboro: "I think God came down and tapped him on the shoulder and said, 'Boy, I'm gonna make you a pitcher.' God only made one of him." Andy Etchebarren: "See, you need a certain amount of time for the eye to see what it sees and what it needs to tell the brain what it needs to be told, and then your hands gotta move. And that is all taking place in less than a second. With Koufax, your eyes couldn't tell your brain to react in time." On Koufax's fastball seeming to rise and accelerate just before it got to the plate, umpire Doug Harvey: "I don't know why or how. In thirty-one years, I've never seen anybody else who could do that...Nobody's ball did what Koufax's ball did." Stan Musial: "Rose up just before it got to the plate." Carl Erskine: "It reaccelerated. It came again." On Koufax's curve ball, Jim Wynn: "A mystic waterfall." Orlando Cepeda: "It sounded like a little tornado. Bzzzzzzz. And it looked like a high fastball. Then it dropped ---BOOM---in front of you. So fast and noisy, it scared you." These quotes are from Jane Leavy's book on Koufax. I just don't buy the idea that his road record disqualified him from being considered great. The way some people are talking, it seems like it was a moral outrage that his E.R.A wasn't below 0.00 on the road. In 1962, his season ended early. Yeah, his home E.R.A was significantly lower at at 1.75 compared to his road E.R.A at 3.53. But he only played half a season. In 1963 the split was 1.38 at home and 2.31 away. 2.31 is an E.R.A most pitchers would kill for. 1964: 0.84 (astounding) to 2.93. With that 2.93 I guess they should have shipped him down to the minors. 1965: 1.38 to 2.72. Another horrible year. 1966: 1.52 to 1.96. His arthritic elbow was what probably got the away number down below 2.00. Let's face it, Koufax probably knew someone in management who let him hang on to his job. Just to reiterate, there were other great lefties who you could make a case for as being the all-time best lefty. I'm just arguing against the idea that Koufax was just good. He was great. He was recognized as such by his peers, and his record speaks for itself. |
#85
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#86
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Both Koufax and Spahn pitched in "pitchers parks" (County and Dodger Stadium) the majority of their careers so that helps and somewhere I recall reading that the mound at LAD was unusually high in the 60s. Both fantastic however.
__________________
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#87
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Be careful? Why do I need to be careful? What’s the threat here exactly? |
#88
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That does nothing to take away from what Kershaw has done in his career. I think he deserves the Koufax comparisons. But comparing career totals misses the story with Koufax in my opinion. |
#89
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Tony Biviano |
#90
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Where are the quotes about trying to hit Koufax in 1961?
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If Koufax was so completely unhittable, why was he awful at the LA Coliseum? Careful - if you're not allowed to attribute his success to his ballpark, you don't get to blame his failures either. Quote:
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So, Koufax defenders, please explain: 1) his high ERA in 6 of 13 ballparks he pitched in? 2) why his consistent success only started when the NL expanded, the strike zone expanded, and Dodger Stadium opened? And, if it was just "well, he started throwing strikes", how do you reconcile that with the expansion of the strike zone? Since I got asked, five pitchers better than Koufax (in no order): 1) Walter Johnson 2) Lefty Grove 3) Tom Seaver 4) Pedro Martinez 5) Roger Clemens Last edited by Tabe; 07-12-2020 at 10:06 PM. |
#91
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The Koufax argument is:
You must ignore context of era. You must ignore home/road and context of ballpark. You must ignore longevity. You must ignore half of a players career if it doesn’t support your argument. Fantasies of things you think could happen but did not are better evidence than things that actually did, and verifiably did, happen. You must ignore new stats since none of them help Koufax’s case. You must ignore the old stats that also do not help Koufax’s case. If you don’t follow these principles, you are a fool and need to “be careful”. The passion for ones favorite ball players is admirable, but the logic of this argument has run off any rails in the ballpark of reason. |
#92
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[QUOTE=Tabe;1998311]Where are the quotes about trying to hit Koufax in 1961?
Where are the quotes from any player that Koufax was easy to hit off of in their ballpark?.... or that he was just a "good" or "typical" pitcher when he pitched outside of dodger stadium? "Wooohoooo.... we get to face that "staff average" guy, Koufax... Yipeeee!!! --- Nobody The Anti-Koufax Arguement: Ignores that most Hall of Famers would say Koufax was the greatest lefty they had ever seen or played against. This includes HOFers who were still alive in the early to mid 1960's who had faced great pitchers from the past. THAT is the greatest compliment there is. Statistics can be bent and used in many different ways. Sometimes you have to look at other measures. JMO
__________________
Focusing on Vintage Sports & Non-Sports Photography for over 25 Years. Last edited by Robbie; 07-12-2020 at 11:10 PM. |
#93
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Anyone who can hit hit a flying bird, gets my vote. The Big Unit Randy Johnson would do well in any era of baseball
https://youtu.be/FCNZg2xwl54
__________________
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#94
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Deleted (posted twice somehow)
Last edited by jgannon; 07-13-2020 at 01:34 AM. |
#95
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Regarding your saying that Koufax didn't play only 1/2 a season in 1962: he only appeared in 3 games in September, going 2/3 of an inning on 9/21, 2 innings on 9/23, and 5 innings on 9/27. He lost a game and his E.R.A was 8.22 for the month. Sounds like maybe he wasn't quite himself after having crushed the artery in the palm of his throwing hand. The 8.22 may have had a little to do also with raising his overall season E.R.A. Just like the E.R.A he got for the one appearance he made in October, which was 27.00 for one inning pitched in a game he got tagged for a loss. So, after July he pitched a grand total of 8.2 innings. So, I'll stick with his pitching a 1/2 season. You also say that the Dodgers team E.R.A. was 2.95 for the year in 1964. Without Koufax's 1.74 E.R.A added into the mix, the team's E.R.A. would have been somewhat higher, I imagine. If somebody can calculate that that would be good. I don't know just how much higher it would be. Regarding Koufax's early career, he was of course, a bonus baby, and he didn't get a lot of playing time. He didn't get that all important time to develop in the minors. It also wasn't in Walter Alston's interest to experiment with a rookie when he had an established staff, was fighting for the pennant, and was working under one-year contracts. Jackie Robinson didn't like Alston and thought he was dumb for using Koufax so sporadically, especially after showing occasional flashes of brilliance. But Koufax obviously had some kinks to work out. The mound had been mandated set to 15 inches in 1950, so that had been in place for some time. Did the expanded strike zone help Koufax? Yeah, I'm sure. But two things: the strike zone between 1963-1968 from the top of the shoulders to the knees, was also the strike zone from 1887-1950. The strike zone was changed from 1950-1963 to be from the armpits to the top of the knees. People here are acting as though 1963-1968 was the exception to the rule. At that time, 1950-1963 was the exception to the rule. After 1968, that strike zone was reinstated, this time with the lowered mound. But Koufax enjoyed the same strike zone as Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson, although pitching mounds during Grove and Johnson's time weren't uniform, in that back then it was stipulated that they could be "no more than" 15 inches. And did Dodger Stadium help Koufax? I'd say yeah, it had to help. It had generous enough foul territory near the plate, and the hitting background wasn't supposed to be good (at least back then). But I think you are over-attributing his success to a ballpark. No other Dodger pitcher dominated the way Koufax did after he found his groove, although Drysdale of course was a great pitcher. Koufax DID start throwing strikes, with a legendary fastball as attested to by players like Hank Aaron in my previous post, as well as his 12 to 6 curve ball also attested to. Again, maybe the return to the larger strike zone helped Koufax. But every other major league pitcher was working with the same strike zone, and nobody put up Koufax's numbers. Give the man his due. All the ballparks were and are different. There are short fences and long fences. Parks where the wind and the sun affect the playing field differently. It's one of the great things about baseball, in my opinion. It can lead to interesting discussions like this. But it's ridiculous to trivialize Koufax's achievements as merely being a product of location. Koufax worked under and worked with the rules, the parks, the hitters, and the style of play extant at that time, and excelled. Those are the facts. Also, in response to the expanded league: Koufax had to face the great black and Latino players of his era, something the players of previous eras didn't have to contend with, sadly and unfortunately. Last edited by jgannon; 07-13-2020 at 01:36 AM. |
#96
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H/9 1st K/9 1st Ks 1st K/BB 1st FIP 1st ERA 7th Koufax wasn't the best lefty of all time in 1961 but he was one of the best pitchers in baseball. The left field fence at the LA Coliseum was 251 feet from home plate. Dodger Stadium a normal 330 feet and you wonder why Koufax was better in Dodger Stadium? It is common for players to do better in their home park. Sleeping in their own bed vs a hotel, no travel, familiarity with park, fan support, etc. Koufax was no different. Koufax would have been much better 1958-1961 if the Dodgers weren't playing in a football stadium with unusual dimensions, but all you want to do is criticize him for having only 5 years of a home park advantage in LA but his numbers are hurt worse for 4 in the Coliseum. |
#97
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#98
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Koufax pitched 12 years. And half of those years were junk. Now if you are stuck on peak value with blinders on, then yes, Koufax is your man. Building a long term team, jeez, hard to go against Grove, Randy Johnson.
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#99
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Grove
Give me a break. This type of comparison is just plain silly if you don’t take the eras into account. ERAs in the two pitchers’ eras are so different it’s almost like a different game. And there never was a pitcher’s park like Dodger Stadium in the 1960s.
The clincher for me is the nine ERA titles Grove won. I think that’s the most amazing pitching record in baseball history. Maybe you can explain how all the great hitters on Grove’s teams enabled him to do that. Oh yeah, one more thought about those strikeout totals. All Grove did was lead thie league in Ks seven straight years. Quote:
Last edited by timn1; 07-13-2020 at 09:58 AM. |
#100
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On a purely talent level I still think Waddell was the best lefty to ever pitch. He needed nothing but his arm to propel himself into the HOF. He lacked the mental capabilities to really pitch, but it ultimately didn't matter.
When you put it all together, I don't see how anyone could argue against Randy Johnson. He pitched at the height of the steriod era and against players who were by and large cheating, yet it didn't matter. Imagine him in a clean game. There wouldn't have even been a game. All due respect to Koufax, but he was no Randy. |
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