Goode

[Pat R]

..

[Pat R]

...Regarding your......" SIDE NOTE: Apparently Levi is the only guy on earth interested in making a go at it! "

Levi B., who I've known since 1981, is only the most recent guy to attempt a "master set" of T206's. Prior to Levi, I was
collecting T206 sub-sets. Prior to my T206 adventures, Brian Weisner and Art Martineau. Before them, Tony Carrafiell, Bill
Heitman, and Irv Lerner....to mention a few. I'm sure there are others that I've left out. So, what are you talking about ?

FYI....in 2005, I broke up my 2nd T206 set and started an all-PIEDMONT set. To date, I have accumulated 2104 different
T206 front/back combinations. The following details my T206 sub-sets and additional T206's..........

CARDS
-------
521......PIEDMONT factory 25 (-Doyle, Plank, Wagner)

408......SOVEREIGN (COMPLETE)

467......SWEET CAPORAL factory #30 (-Plank, Wagner)

.35......SWEET CAPORAL factory #649 (COMPLETE)

.50......SWEET CAPORAL factory #42 (overprint)....partially complete

.66......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (near complete)

557......additional T206's with BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, EPDG, HINDU, LENOX, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT,
--------POLAR BEAR, TOLSTOI, UZIT backs

2104......TOTAL cards


Will I continue to collect towards a Master set of T206's....that remains to be seen ?
More significant, is that my approach to collecting these T206 cards, is one which is structured. Resulting in identifying the
elusive No-Prints in these sub-sets.

TED Z

P.S.
So, try to get your facts straight before you post. And, your reference to PSA's list is a joke. Scot Reader's data and Bill
Brown's "super-set" excel spreadsheet are the most accurate.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ight=Sovereign

[Pat R]

.

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?

This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.




.... . . . . . .



To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.

150/350 Series................83 subjects

.

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)

Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)

Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)

Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer

Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)

350-only Series................102 subjects

.

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)

Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper

Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore

Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson

Wright
Zimmerman

Six Super-Prints

.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

350/460 series................56 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



.


460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.

Thanx


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R

...

[Pat R]

Edited-not edited-1/2 edited

Originally Posted by tedzan

American Litho. printed the BL 460 cards in the Fall/Winter of 1910. The BL 460 cards are only from the 350/460 series
of 62 subjects. However, only 42% of these 62 are known BL 460 cards.

The following 26 cards have been confirmed with BL 460 cards as of 4/6/10

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)



There is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......

Ames (hands over head
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


The remaining 28 cards in the 350/460 series apparently are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS".....this list will be posted shortly.

Let's see if you can prove me wrong....And, for every one of the "No-Print" cards you confirm with a BL 460 back,
I will reward you with a Andrew Jackson Greenback !



TED Z

Click on the blue arrow next to tedzan to see this unedited post

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, let's not forget the T206 subjects that have a good probability of being found with
BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

I'm not paying any reward for finding any of these 7 cards, since my research tells me
that they should exist.


TED Z

Click on this blue arrow to see this post was edited to "correct typo" notice he added Ames but forgot to change the 7 to an 8

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, I'm still looking for these T206 subjects that have a good probability of being found
with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands over head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

I am not paying any reward for finding any of these 7 cards, since my research tells me
that they should exist.


TED Z

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Edited-not edited-1/2 edited

.

Originally Posted by tedzan

T206Resource (and other sources on Net54) continue the myth that Ames (hands over head) is "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) back.
Furthermore, these sources also claim that this same Ames card has been confirmed with the UZIT back.

These are IMPOSSIBLE front/back combos !

I'm so certain that the above front/back combos do NOT exist, that I am willing to offer a $500 reward to anyone here who can show me a legitimate card
of Ames with an AB 460 or UZIT back.....thereby disproving my theory.


> > > > > >


. . > > > > > > > > > >


A year ago I offered a $500 reward....check-out this thread > http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240984. Obviously, no such Ames card(s) showed up.
One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. So, I figured I would give this experiment one more try.

The Ames (hands over head) is a 350/460 series subject. My research indicates American Lithographic printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 backs and
the Red HINDU backs simultaneously......"matched pairs".

Ames has been confirmed with the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 back. It has not yet been confirmed with the Red HINDU back. But, it's just a matter of time
that this Ames card with a Red HINDU back will be discovered.


. . . .



Furthermore, Ames card is not the only incorrect info in T206Resource....4 subjects in T206Resource's PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 listing are identified as "confirmed".

These 4 cards, which T206Resource claims to be confirmed, have never been seen ** with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

For the most part, T206Resource is a dependable site to rely on.....but, they are absolutely mis-informing T206 collectors on these 6 cards noted in this thread.

You can contact me via email.... tedzan11@comcast.net. Or, look for me at the National. I'll be wandering about with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket.
So, if you have either one of these Ames cards to show me, and the card is authentic, then the $500 reward is yours....payable on the spot with cash.


** Note.... In the following post here these facts presented here will be reinforced.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Your two Ames cards with Brown HINDU back is a start on a possible "HINDU Trifecta". Unfortunately,
the Ames card in the 350/460 series has not been confirmed with a Red HINDU back, and, there is an
extremely low probability that such a front/back combo will eventually be found.

This is so, because this Ames exists with an American Beauty 460 back. As noted in a recent thread
AB 460 and Red HINDU backs are mutually exclusive with the cards in the 350/460 series.


TED Z

Originally Posted by Pat R

.

..

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

New Survey guys......let's see your legitimate BLANK-BACKS of 19th Century BB cards....
20th Century Candy-cards....T-cards....Gum cards....Bread cards....any other cards....?

Also, these are really rare....any BLANK-FRONTS ?

I've a T-206 with no pix on the Front and a Piedmont back. It is a legitimate card missing
it's front pix....it has not been de-laminated. When I get a chance I will scan it.

T-Rex TED

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84052

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I have a T206 that's blank on the front with a Piedmont back.

We are leaving for the day. I'll scan it sometime this weekend.

Everyone....have a happy and safe Memorial Day holiday.

TED Z

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=85713

Originally Posted by Pat R

...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Pat R

...

..

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scott,

Your description of the color error cards is vary similar to
my observations on not only T206 cards: but also N162, 1949
Leaf and Bowman cards. I've already noted my T206 color errors.

In addition, I have an N162 Fred Dunlap (normally GREEN) that
has a YELLOW background. I have 1949 Leaf Ruth & Ted Williams
with PURPLE instead of RED backgrounds. Several more Leafs that
are YELLOW instead of GREEN. And, numerous 1949 Bowmans that
are PINK instead of RED; or YELLOW instead of ORANGE or GREEN.

All the way back to 19th Century color printing, there has al-
ways been a 4 - phase process in color printing. You can still
see this when you get color copies (eg, at Staples). The copier
will scan 4 times for each color copy. To create a deep RED, it
prints a Pink or Orange tint first. To create ORANGE or GREEN
it first prints a Yellow. Now, I do not claim to be an expert
on this, but you can see how these color errors in sports cards
result when an incomplete printing run occurs at the factory.
And, in a rush to get product into the market, these cards slip
by whatever quality control exists at the factory.

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Adam W.

Myths are funny things, usually applied to some ancient Greek
warriors and their exploits. Troy (and the Trojan Horse) were
an outstanding example of a Myth. Until Heinrich Schliemann
defied all odds and discovered Troy approx. 150 years ago and
confirmed a lot of Homer's writings. Nevertheless, this story
is still considered a "myth" by many.

So, I do not understand your criticism of my use of this word
to describe the "broken plate" theory, which has been passed
thru several generations of hobbyist in order to explain why
certain cards are rare.

I'm certainly no expert on printing processes (although I did
have 2 yrs. of Print Class in HS), but I do know that multiple
plates are created in the process of printing. Did you read my
above post where there were multiple plates of the Ted Williams
image in the 1954 Bowman "find" ?

To produce color printing takes at least 4 stages, it is somewhat
of a time consuming process. To mass produce BB cards printers
must create multiple impressions of a given image (multiple plates)
to efficiently do the job and get product out to the market.

Finally, the strip you referred to with Wagner is just a horizontal
strip. The T206's were printed in sheet form (i.e., rows and columns)
My contention (based on information I gleaned back in the early 1980's)
was that Plank was adjacent to Wagner in a column. And, it does not
take much imagination to see how Plank could have been discarded along
with Wagner.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

I fully understand what you refer to as "plate scratches". I've followed your posts regarding your Piedmont 150 analysis.
Furthermore, when I was a teenager, I worked as an apprentice in a print shop and I am familiar with printing practices.

I respect all the time & effort you have put into your T206 project. However, we are now talking about E90-1 cards. E90
cards were printed by a Lithographic firm in Philadelphia (1908-1910). The T206's were printed by American Litho (NYC)
and it's my understanding that state-of-the-art rotary off-set presses were used to print these cards.

I took the trouble of scanning Ebay's current listing of E90-1 cards. There are 178 unique E90-1 cards listed whose backs
are visible in this listing. Only 7 of these cards exhibit "ink streaks"....resulting in 3.9 %.

The grand total (of this group and the group noted in Post #36) is 386 samples. Only 14 of these cards have "ink streaks"
resulting in a mere 3.6 %.

I repeat: such a limited sampling (plus the varying characteristics of the "ink streaks") of these E90-1 cards certainly does
not make for a reliable (or scientific) method for attempting to determine valid sheet layout, or series structure ?


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

You say "34-card" sheet....and I say "36-card" sheet. I shall repeat.

American Lithograph's small size printing presses had 19-inch track widths, which were sufficiently wide to print 12 cards across the sheet....hence, 36, 48, 72, 96 card sheets.
Therefore, such a sheet with 34 different subjects will have 2 double-prints included to fill-out that sheet. In the SWEET CAP 150 #649 case, my guess is that Johnson & Matty
were double-printed. Just like when TOPPS Hi# sheet (97 different subjects) had Mantle, Robinson, and Thomson double-printed to fill out their 100-card sheet.

In the Southern League case, it's anyone's guess which two players were double-printed. As a teenager, I worked in a Print Shop and I'm very familiar with printing practices.


Come-on Pat, you're nit-picking again..... "I think there were 156 subjects that were printed with 150 back "

I stated.... [B]"There are 155 different subjects"....that does not include the MAGIE error card.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by pat r

...

..

Originally Posted by jerrytotino

ted,


2-11-2010
to expand on your bl460 "no print" theory for cards not having a confirmed uzit and/or ab460 b/f combo i noticed that a very large majority (over 83%) of the confirmed bl460's are cards which are also confirmed with a red hindu back. I am only referring to red hindu cards which are part of the 350/460 series with the exception of the 460-only kleinow (boston). as you have already pointed out the kleinow (boston) breaks the standard back rules.

In all the cases where a confirmed bl460 back does exist with a uzit and/or ab460 back the player also has a confirmed red hindu:

Baker - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
burch (fielding) - confirmed with uzit, ab460 and red hindu
cobb (red portrait) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
downey (bat) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
elberfeld (fielding) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
o'leary (hands on knees) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
seymour (throwing) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
snodgrass (fielding) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu

of the remaining 21 confirmed bl460 subjects which do not exist with either the ab460 or uzit all except for 5 have been confirmed with a red hindu back. These 5 subjects are listed below:

Dougherty (arm in air)
mathewson (dark cap)
mcintyre (brooklyn & chicago)
murphy (batting)
rucker (throwing)

based on these observations it appears that red hindu seems to be tied closely to the bl460 back. 24 of the 29 confirmed bl460's are also confirmed with a red hindu back. Assuming this theory to be correct then there is a possibility the 5 players above may be confirmed with a red hindu back at some point.

In addition, extending this theory to the remaining "super-prints" and remaining confirmed 350/460 series red hindu's the following cards may also be found with bl460 at some point:

Bender (no trees)
chase (blue portrait)
chase (dark cap)
cobb (bat off) - as noted this might exist, but waiting for additional confirmation
donlin (bat)
magee (bat)
manning (pitch)
pfeister (throwing)
wagner (bat/right)

any thoughts are appreciated.

Jerry

Originally Posted by tedzan

jerry

great observation regarding the possible connection of bl 460 and red hindu cards. and, of course this only
applies to cards in the 350/460 series (bl 460 backs only exist in this series).

While i was putting together my american beauty 460 sub-set, i observed this bl 460/rh linkage. By virtue
of the fact that ab 460 and red hindu cards are mutually exclusive. So, i'm glad that you, too, have noticed
the bl 460/rh connection.

Now pardon me, but i have to correct you on the following back data......

Baker...........has not been confirmed with ab 460
cobb............has not been confirmed with red hindu
elberfeld........has not been confirmed with ab 460
o'leary.........has not been confirmed with ab 460
snodgrass.....has not been confirmed with ab 460

my research on these 5 cards is reflected on the most current super-set spreadsheet.

Thanks for posting this very meaningful info regarding the bl 460 cards; and, i hope we can further this discussion.

Ted z

12-2-10

Originally Posted by tedzan

my hypothesis that the 350/460 series of t206's with broad leaf 460 and red hindu backs were printed with identical fronts is nearly confirmed.
these cards were printed and issued in the fall/winter of 1910. The 23 cards listed here are approaching a final count of the bl 460 / red hindu
matched "twins".
For more info regarding this theory, check out this link......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460





these 23 subjects have been confirmed with both the broad leaf 460 and red hindu backs......

Baker
m. Brown (chicago
cobb (red portrait)
davis (a's)
doolan (bat)
downey (bat)
elberfeld (washington-fielding)
evers (bat-yellow sky)
griffith (bat)
johnson (pitching)
joss (pitching)
kleinow (boston)
konetchy (glove low)
murphy (bat)
o'leary (hands on knees)
rucker (throwing)
seymour (throwing
snodgrass (catching)
stahl (glove)
street (catching)
sweeney (fielding)
willis (throwing)
cy young (glove)


the following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the red hindu back, but not yet with the broad leaf 460 back:

Chance (portrait-yellow)
chase (portrait-blue)
chase (dark cap)
donlin (bat)
doyle (bat)
magee (bat)

i would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above three t206's with a broad leaf 460 back.


Conversely......
The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the broad leaf 460 back, but not yet with the red hindu back:

Dougherty (arm in air)
mathewson (dark cap)
mcintyre (brooklyn & chicago)
reulbach (no glove)

i would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above four t206's with a red hindu back.


Note....regarding red hindu cards......

Unfortunately, in the 1990's, there were some unscrupulous (but very talented) scam "artists" who bought up many red hindu common cards.
They modified these cards to create re-fronted star cards, which were so authentic that they fooled the graders at psa and sgc.

Fortunately, these fake cards did not fool the t206 experts. As, the scammers were not smart enough to know the legitimate t206 front/back
combos on such cards as the various cobb's, matty's, etc. Therefore, most of these t206 fakes were detected.

But the bad news is....that we will never really know how many red hindu cards were lost in this process.



Ted z

5-9-2015

Originally Posted by [b

pat r;1409690]they're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed brown
lenox subjects are among the 75 ab 460 subjects.

[/b]
10-20-2015

Originally Posted by pat r

i have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so i thought i would try it here.

All of the confirmed brown lenox subjects are also ab 460 subjects so i was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
ab 460's were also used for the brown lenox.

While the brown lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non ab 460
subjects has been confirmed with a brown lenox. So could it be that not all black lenox subjects are possible with brown lenox and only ab 460 subjects are?

Originally Posted by tedzan;1463551[b

]very interesting observation, pat.[/b]

we do know that some of the sheets used to print the ab 460 backs were also used to print the uzit backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the ab 460 cards and the brown lenox cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown lenox cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (lajoie, overall, pfeister, wagner) of these 22 brown lenox
cards have yet to be confirmed with black lenox backs ? ? ? ?


Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are ab 460 no-prints (not 34).



ted z
.

1-16-2016

Originally Posted by tedzan

american lithographic (alc) printed the american beauty 460, piedmont 460 (factory 42), lenox, and uzit cards circa...feb 1911. Concurrently, alc started producing
their gold-bordered cards, beginning with their t80 (military series) which were printed with t206-type backs (lenox, old mill, tolstoi, uzit) and cairo monopol.
The latter t-brand back was printed using brown ink.

I contend that the t206 brown lenox cards are simply the result an alc printer who had just completed a press run of t80 cards with cairo monopol backs, then failed to
switch to black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of t206 black lenox cards.

in time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown lenox backs. My 75 number tracks with the piedmont 460 factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by pat r in another thread, that brown lenox cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the american beauty 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown lenox cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the t80 cairo monopol cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.


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currently, there are only 23 confirmed t206 subjects with brown lenox backs......

350/460 series

bradley (bat)
burch (fielding)
cobb (bat off shoulder)
conroy (bat)
jordan (bat)
lajoie (bat)
lake (no ball)
leach (cap)
leifield (bat)
manning (pitching)
mcquillan (bat)
overall (yellow sky)
pfeister (throwing)
f. Smith (chicago & boston)
wagner (bat on right shoulder)
willetts
willis (bat)


460-only series

chase (trophy)
latham
marquard (pitching)
merkle (throwing)
schlei (portrait)
wiltse (portrait-cap)


show us your brown lenox cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.


ted z
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6-2-2017

Originally Posted by tedzan

to date, 23 brown lenox cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, we can predict that 13 (or 14) more t206 cards will eventually be discovered with brown lenox backs.
Six subjects of the 23 brown lenox cards are from the 460-only series, and 17 subjects are from the 350/460 series......
group b




350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown lenox backs

bradley (bat)
burch (fielding)
cobb (bat off shoulder)
conroy (bat)
jordan (bat)
lajoie (bat)
lake (no ball)
leach (cap)
leifield (bat)
manning (pitching)
mcquillan (bat)
overall (yellow sky)
pfeister (throwing)
f. Smith (chicago & boston)
wagner (bat on right shoulder)
willetts
willis (bat)


the timeline of the printing of these group b subjects with american beauty 460, lenox, piedmont 460 factory #42, and uzit back was jan-feb 1911. This exact timeline
coincides with the printing of the t80 (military men) cards, which were printed with cairo monopol, lenox, old mill, tolstoi. And uzit backs.

t80 cards




so, here is my hypothesis....the printer at american lithographic inadvertently forgot to switch from the brown ink after press runs of t80 cairo monopol cards to black ink
prior to starting a press run of t206 lenox cards. Furthermore, my guess is he caught his mistake quickly, which would explain why very few brown lenox examples exist.
Instead of dis-carding these brown lenox cards, these mistakes were shipped along with the black lenox cards to factory #30. And, were inserted into lenox packs.




Regarding the 6 subjects from the 460-only series with brown lenox backs......they appear to be from the same group of 9 subjects which were printed with piedmont 460
factory #42 backs.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown lenox backs

chase (trophy)
latham
marquard (pitching)
merkle (throwing)
schlei (portrait)
wiltse (portrait-cap)

i expect these 3 subjects will be found with brown lenox backs......

Schlei (batting)
schaefer (washington)
seymour (portrait)


would love to hear from some of you on this forum with your responses to this theory ?


ted z
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Pat R

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Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I am finally out of jury duty, all week I didn't get on any case. The lawyers kept rejecting me....didn't
like my looks, didn't like my answers, or most likely didn't want an engineer on a case.

In general, I agree with you, it's a "monster mess", as there are too many back variables to try and arrive
at some neat rhyme or reason from all this. My perspective, however, for this theory ignores the compli-
cations resulting from the various backs and is a 1st order approach with respect to the fronts. Which, by
the way, you can apply this thinking to an all-Piedmont set of 522 cards and the analysis should be the
same.

Do you agree, though, that with 144 Subjects in the 150/350 group....48 Southern Lgers....and 48 Subjects
in the 460-only Series, it is awful tempting to think T206 formatted their design around this factor of 48 ?

And, I say this because I still have strong feelings that the fronts were printed separately; and, at some
stage in the process were somehow appliqued onto pre-printed cardboard sheets with the various T-brands.
So, that's my rationale for approaching this strictly from a "front" perspective. Otherwise, it is mind-boggling.

TED Z

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I too was dismissed from a jury panel during voir dire last time I was called for service. Engineer + Lawyer = Goodbye. Anyway, on the same jury panel was a guy who had legally changed his name to Jesus Christ and who came to the courtroom dressed in a white robe. He survived voir dire and ruled on the case. No joke.

I will grant you that "48" pops up a lot in T206. I'm just not sure anything about production can be surmised from that.

Scot

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76688

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
The 1st series, 2/3 (33 cards) of the 49 have the 1948 COPY-
RIGHT; and, 16 cards have the 1949 COPYRIGHT. The 2nd series
(scarce issue) approx. has the same breakdown between 1948 &
1949 COPYRIGHTs. Does this suggest that some cards were issued
in 1948, while others in 1949 ? HECK NO !
1st..It is ILLEGAL, & certainly ILLOGICAL to grant a COPYRIGHT
in advance.
2nd..I can clearly recall buying and trading many of the LEAF
BB cards early in 1949. In Hillside, NJ we only had the 1st
series cards. My original collection survived and I had over
100 of these cards. We kept buying them since we could not
figure how many completed a set (due to the skip-nos. cards)
3rd..Then, in the early '80s I acquired an uncut 49-card sheet
of 1948 LEAF Boxing Champs and an uncut 49-card sheet of
1949 LEAF BB cards (1st series). This confirmed in my mind
that my recollection was accurate regarding this 1949 issue
4th..In researching into the players who were traded late in
1948 that are portrayed in this set, it becomes evident that
it is virtually impossible to have marketed this set in 1948
Finally, I was able to complete the 1949 LEAF set during the
1980's, starting with Leroy Paige. I acquired this card back
in 1982 from Rick Starks (Erie, PA dealer). He helped me with
almost all of the 2nd 49 cards, as nearby OHIO was the main
souce of them. My experience with the "scarce" LEAF cards is
that LEAF limited distribution of them to OHIO and MICHIGAN.


Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Hal, you have asked me essentially four questions, so here
are my answers:

1st....Yes, the 1949 Leaf BB set of 98 cards were printed on
two sheets configured in a 7 x 7 array = 49 cards each.

2nd....I have had only the first series uncut sheet and there
exists a mixture of 1948 & 1949 COPYRIGHTed cards on this
sheet (the Copyright breakdown is 33 and 16, respectively)
I have never seen a 2nd series sheet; however, it can be
a safe assumption that it would contain a mixture of both
year's Copyrights, as the 1st sheet. Indeed, if you look
at the backs of the "so-called" SP cards, the breakdown of
two years' Copyrights is very similar.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76688

https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...pened-wax-pack

Post 27

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=Leaf

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by pat r

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Originally Posted by steve_a

below is (not mine) an upside down doc white. Since it is upside down the back should be from a column equal columns from the center. For instance, given columns abcd a typical a back would be a d when upside down. If we can match this back to a right-side-up player we have another data point on sheet width. If both players can be linked by a multi-column horizontal scratch that terminates in a side crop then i think algebra would give us the sheet width. Not a lot to work with here but i think there is scratch between "u" in subjects and "pi" in piedmont. Add in a few stray distinctive marks and someone might recognize it.

11.jpg

Originally Posted by pat r

erick, i think steve is referring to the short mark i circled in red but you
had it in hand and got a better look at it than what can be seen in the
small scans.
12.jpg
when you originally posted scans of this card i was looking at trying to
find a pd 150 subject with the mark i circled in black, it looks like it's
some kind of print mark.

Originally Posted by steve_a

i can confirm that upside down white & doyle have matching backs. It might not be super clear in the scans but i have both in hand and they match. This means that these two cards are in opposite positions, equal rows and columns from the center, sides, top/bottom, horizontal axis, etc. If we can link either of these two to a center/side/each-other via scratch we could make a lot of progress quickly. I look forward to seeing any scratches, neighbors, two-namers, etc that you have. Another piece in the sheet-size puzzle...

13.jpg

Originally Posted by pat r

nice work steve,

doyle is on one of the sheets that has two different subjects with identical scratches indicating the back plates were used on two different fronts.

stone is a match for doyle and i think the sheet with stone on it would
have been the one that white was on because doyle is a 150 only subject
and white isn't, so we should eventually find a stone with the same partial
scratch that doyle and the upside down white have.

here's the sheet i'm referring to if you click on the link you can magnify it
and get a better look. We are still working on this sheet but i think the
cobb/tinker belongs on the right (back of sheet) not the left.

There are a few spots where the second subject with a matching scratch haven't been found yet and if/when a white scratch is found it will probably be a match to either pattee, reulbach or burch.

http://photos.imageevent.com/patrick...et%20c-d_1.jpg

Originally Posted by pat r

almost three years ago steve pointed out in this thread that the upside
down back of white matched up with a doyle back.

At the time i searched and couldn't find a doyle or stone (doyle and
stone share the same position on a plate scratch sheet) that had a print
flaw that is on the smaller portion of the second back on the upside down
white.

This doyle that sold on ebay recently has that mark.
14.jpg15.jpg
16.jpg
so far doc white hasn't been found with a plate scratch but if
one is eventually found it should allow us to figure out the exact
size of this plate scratch sheet based off the upside down white.


If the link works it should be a scan of that sheet that can be enlarged.
https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ts/c-d%201.jpg