So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

In 1968, Kaline posted an OPS+ (I can't think of a better solitary figure of general offensive performance) of 146. In 1971, 144. In 1972, 149 (which is better than Clemente). He wasn't a slouch in '69 or '70 either. From 1968-1972, Clemente posted an OPS+ of 153, Kaline of 134.

73 and 74, Kaline's bat was league average. Kaline was below the league average 3 times, Clemente was below average for 4 years, though he didn't play out his decline, for tragic reasons. I don't think anything thinks Kaline was performing like a star his final 2 years.

Clemente is definitely better from 1968-1972; which I suppose is the whole point of focusing on this section. Nobody is arguing that Kaline was better in this selected period. Clemente is a player I greatly admire and like. But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

Kaline was far above an average player in 1972, as was Clemente. Even if we pretended Kaline was a 1B exclusively for the sake of argument. Average 1B weren't posting OPS' of that caliber, RF's were not either. Nowhere near.


I should probably stop before ClementeFan has a heart attack and goes apeshit on a fourth poster now.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- my "heart attack" can only arise from your actually staying point.
Ah well, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Trent King

And the right call is still, and always was, Roberto.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interestingly, for a great player, Clemente has some significant negatives/mediocre stats: home runs, steals and walks. In the end, based on a subjective judgment, I would give a slight edge to Clemente over Kaline, but I give very little credence to arguments Clemente was on a par or better than Aaron.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interestingly, for a great player, Clemente has some significant negatives/mediocre stats: home runs, steals and walks. In the end, based on a subjective judgment, I would give a slight edge to Clemente over Kaline, but I give very little credence to arguments Clemente was on a par or better than Aaron.

Before looking deeper, I would have expected Clemente to have the better SB record, and while he wasn't a walk machine, I didn't realize how little he walked. I thought Clemente would have the higher OBP, and lose slugging by a wider margin than he does (He's only .005 below Kaline's).

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

He was an average bat in 1973 and 1974. When were 1B's posting 134 OPS+'s as average? Let's not get carried away. He was getting on base and slugging well over average starters. If this is average offensive performance, Clemente has a whole lot of average years in his post-1960 career.

WAR hates his defense. I don't put much stock in that, some do. I don't think it's a very accurate measurement, though it really helps some players I like and usually works for the guy I like more than the guy I don't (though the guy I like here is Roberto more than Al). I don't know when his glove really went, I don't doubt Clemente was probably better on D late career too.

WAA has them essentially equal for their careers too, like most measures.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

He was an average bat in 1973 and 1974. When were 1B's posting 134 OPS+'s as average? Let's not get carried away.

I am not sure I am following. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134.
But his OPS+ was 96 in 1973 and 107 as DH in 1974.

Other AL DHs' OPS+ in 1974:
New York: Ron Blomberg 147
Angels: Frank Robinson 146
Cleveland: Oscar Gamble 140
Kansas City: Hal McRae 139
Minnesota: Tony Oliva 109
Texas: Jim Spencer 108
Baltimore: Tommy Davis 105
Chicago: Pat Kelly 104
Milwaukee: Bobby Mitchell 103
Boston: Cecil Cooper 101
Oakland: Jesus Alou 83

So Kaline's OPS+ at DH of 107 was higher 5 other AL DHs and lower than 6.
The average OPS+ of the DHs was just under 117, significantly higher than Kaline's.

The point is that a player's value to his team has a lot to do with the position he plays. Clemente was still playing a productive Right Field at the end of his career, not platooning with 1st Base or DH.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am not sure I am following. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134.
But his OPS+ was 96 in 1973 and 107 as DH in 1974.

Other AL DHs' OPS+ in 1974:
New York: Ron Blomberg 147
Angels: Frank Robinson 146
Cleveland: Oscar Gamble 140
Kansas City: Hal McRae 139
Minnesota: Tony Oliva 109
Texas: Jim Spencer 108
Baltimore: Tommy Davis 105
Chicago: Pat Kelly 104
Milwaukee: Bobby Mitchell 103
Boston: Cecil Cooper 101
Oakland: Jesus Alou 83

So Kaline's OPS at DH of 107 was higher 5 other AL DHs and lower than 6.
The average OPS+ of the DHs was just under 117, significantly higher than Kaline's.

The point is that a player's value to his team has a lot to do with the position he plays. Clemente was still playing a productive Right Field at the end of his career, not platooning with 1st Base or DH.

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it any more.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it.

As I’ve said from the get go, I agree his last two years. A league average bat DH is not valuable. Absolutely nobody has said Kaline was great in 73 or 74. He was also not average or below average the five years before that though, as was originally argued. He was far above average starters at either of his positions (mainly OF). He was posting strong batting lines those five years. His bay isn’t in decline until 1973, not 1968.

I also agreed he probably wasn’t a star on defense anymore and Clemente was better. I don’t think we disagree; I’ve certainly written nothing contradictory to your point here. I don’t doubt moving him to DH at 39 was a good idea.