Kurt's Card Care

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Oy, as Yogi would say - this thread is deja vu all over again...

My point from other threads remarkably similar to this one is that unless you (or I, or a grading company, or the FBI / CIA) can TELL after the fact that a card was indeed cleaned / spiffed-up / altered - then this whole thing is a moot point, because any professional judgement of said card will render it NOT altered, and 99.44% of potential buyers for the card will never be the wiser.

As for the rest - condemning only the act of cleaning / using KCC products in abstentia, thinking that those who engage in this stuff are bad characters - all just becomes speculation and finger pointing that leads to nowhere. Sure, they are bad people. It's "shady". Oh, can you tell which card here was altered? Me neither.

I've played around with Kurt's spray before on my own worthless PC cards just because I was curious. Does it work to an extent? Yes. Is it a magic bullet? No.

Beyond that, I still enjoy chasing and collecting cards much more than I do being a full-time cleaning technician - so the whole thing is not for me. But until PSA and others can start pointing to his altered cards with repetitive accuracy (Please. They can't even spot trimming and minsize with any type of repetitive accuracy) - the practice is going to continue and become even more widespread.

Everyone's heard the "no harm, no foul" argument, just as you've heard the "there may be unknown long-term risks" argument. The line is drawn, and few people are going to switch sides on that point.

The more important question is where do you stand on disclosing what's been done to the card? That's the real heart of the argument. Should the Travises of the world be allowed to sell doctored cards without disclosing that they're doctored because, as you put it, 99.44% of potential buyers will never know the difference?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Everyone's heard the "no harm, no foul" argument, just as you've heard the "there may be unknown long-term risks" argument. The line is drawn, and few people are going to switch sides on that point.

The more important question is where do you stand on disclosing what's been done to the card? That's the real heart of the argument. Should the Travises of the world be allowed to sell doctored cards without disclosing that they're doctored because, as you put it, 99.44% of potential buyers will never know the difference?

I always disclose what I know on raw cards. I'm sure many don't.

Now, If I had a vintage 60's Topps card that I took and removed a crease from using Kurt's methods, and cleaned some wax up off the back via the same, and sent that in to SGC and it gets a 6 because they can't tell (this is what happens every day...) and I get that back - do I say anything other than this card is an SGC 6? I don't know that I would do that but not sure I can find fault with those who do.

The whole point of slabbing cards up to sell is to be able to let the grade speak for the card and not to necessarily go over every single detail about the physical card - which the large majority of ebay sellers anymore don't anyway.

Herein of course lies the conundrum. If / when creases start returning en masse on "fixed" cards that have been slabbed, there is of course going to be a problem. But how will it be addressed in reality? My guess is the grading companies will take the hit over and above "bad actors" in the hobby who will of course largely remain anonymous. Kurt's customers are becoming so widespread it's not as if there are going to be singular villains like a Gary Moser or PWCC to point to. IMO anyway.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I always disclose what I know on raw cards. I'm sure many don't.

Now, If I had a vintage 60's Topps card that I took and removed a crease from using Kurt's methods, and cleaned some wax up off the back via the same, and sent that in to SGC and it gets a 6 because they can't tell (this is what happens every day...) and I get that back - do I say anything other than this card is an SGC 6? I don't know that I would do that but not sure I can find fault with those who do.

The whole point of slabbing cards up to sell is to be able to let the grade speak for the card and not to necessarily go over every single detail about the physical card - which the large majority of ebay sellers anymore don't anyway.

Herein of course lies the conundrum. If / when creases start returning en masse on "fixed" cards that have been slabbed, there is of course going to be a problem. But how will it be addressed in reality? My guess is the grading companies will take the hit over and above "bad actors" in the hobby who will of course largely remain anonymous. Kurt's customers are becoming so widespread it's not as if there are going to be singular villains like a Gary Moser or PWCC to point to. IMO anyway.

Wow, what a mess. I now have a headache!

[G1911]

It takes 1-3 seconds with the average typing speed to disclose the truth of what has been done to a card. It is not a burden. It is very, very easy to simply be honest and tell the truth. If 99% of buyers don’t care or won’t notice (I strongly doubt that), then there is no harm to the price for the virtue of being honest. Of course, the only reason not to disclose is that it does hurt the price if the card is known to be worked on. And so we must wring our hands very week or two and pretend that somehow dishonesty is the right thing to do or at least allowable, because the profit margin is all that matters and the truth is undesirable if not as profitable.

I still cannot think of a single example where covering up the truth of an item is the better thing to do than just being honest. But of course, honesty is not as good as money.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by G1911

It takes 1-3 seconds with the average typing speed to disclose the truth of what has been done to a card. It is not a burden. It is very, very easy to simply be honest and tell the truth. If 99% of buyers don’t care or won’t notice (I strongly doubt that), then there is no harm to the price for the virtue of being honest. Of course, the only reason not to disclose is that it does hurt the price if the card is known to be worked on. And so we must wring our hands very week or two and pretend that somehow dishonesty is the right thing to do or at least allowable, because the profit margin is all that matters and the truth is undesirable if not as profitable.

I still cannot think of a single example where covering up the truth of an item is the better thing to do than just being honest. But of course, honesty is not as good as money.

+1

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Everyone's heard the "no harm, no foul" argument, just as you've heard the "there may be unknown long-term risks" argument. The line is drawn, and few people are going to switch sides on that point.

The more important question is where do you stand on disclosing what's been done to the card? That's the real heart of the argument. Should the Travises of the world be allowed to sell doctored cards without disclosing that they're doctored because, as you put it, 99.44% of potential buyers will never know the difference?

Everything should be disclosed. I would hate to buy a raw card that a seller sold to me, without disclosing the card has been cleaned, trimmed, touched up, or modified in any way, and I then send it in for authentication/grading, only to find out then it has been. Some collectors care, some don't. But it's the right thing to do.