unopened packs that contain T206s

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Posted By: Andrew

I've read some informative posts regarding red flags when buying unopened packs said to contain a T206. However, there seems to be more posts regarding "bogus" packs than real ones. Does anyone have a scan of a pack that contains an actual T206 card?

Since I'm fairly new, I may have missed any images that were previously posted. Thanks.

“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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Posted By: hankron

The main problem is dating the packs to a specfic year. A tax stamp (that 'tag' across the opening) was often used for some years after the date on the stamp-- meaning a 1909 stamp can be found on a 1915 pack. Most packs on eBay are either defineitely the wrong pack or the date is at best a guestimate (could be 1910, could be 1914)

The easy to remember key for collectors is to look for the overprinted date on the stamp-- I beleive in light and often hard to read red lettering. This date is usually NOT found on the packs, but the presence of an overprinted 1909 or 1910 date on the stamp is the most practically provable way to prove the date.

There is another way to prove the correct 'T206' era, by comparing the tax stamp with the branding-- but this is esoteric and difficult to remember.

And don't forget you want a relevant factory.

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Posted By: hankron

I add that a 1905 and a 1919 Sweet Caporal pack has essentially the same design-- so it's not like differentiating from across the room a 1954 baseball and a 1960 Topps football pack.

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Posted By: jay behrens

A quick and easy way to tell a pack DOES NOT have a card in it is if the pack carries the Leggett & Myers name on it.

Jay

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Both David and Jay have pretty much summed up the answer to your question. It is easier to tell on some of the more obscure T-206 related packs, but Sweet Caporal & Piedmont's are nearly impossible. Below are a few images on some T-206 packs. All of them, except for the Sweet Caporal (which has a high possibility as it has a 1909 tax stamp and the right district number) and the Polar Bear (I do have an authentic Polar Bear but was too lazy to scan it - these look IDENTICAL though, did contain a baseball card. The Piedmont was actually just recently opened... Enjoy!

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Posted By: Andrew

Thanks for all the advice and especially the scans. I wonder if most who purchase authentics end up opening them?

“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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Posted By: Max Weder

There's a Ty Cobb T206 with a Ty Cobb back on Mastro. Mastro mentions the "Ty Cobb brand". Did these Ty Cobb backed cards actually come in Ty Cobb brand packages or in some other brand? Have any packs ever surfaced at auction?

Thanks,

Max

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Here is a picture of the Ty Cobb tin that the Ty Cobb backed cards are associated with. This one sold for about $12,000 and I believe it was the last one auctioned off. At last count, I knew of 3 of them but there may be more that other board members know about. Now, the consensus is that the ty Cobb backed card was never inserted into the tobacco product. They were either created to be given away with the product, or all of the cards (10 or so in existence, where a test issue that never made it into the tin) To be honest, I'm not even sure if the tin was ever marketed. It may have been more of a test product, itself.

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Posted By: Joe P.

Andrew
(Login 67standup)
scans August 2 2004, 8:00 PM

"Thanks for all the advice and especially the scans. I wonder if most who purchase authentics end up opening them?"
*
*
*
Andrew, it all depends on whether you're a collector or an investor/speculator.

The collector would open it.

Jon - the scans are beautiful.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Thanks Joe... In terms of opening, I think it all comes down to nerves. I would classify myself as more of a collector and I do have 2 unopened packs and really never got the urge (or should I say had the b*lls) to open them. My father is a dentist and I once had an x-ray taken of it but it shows nothing... That, in itself, is a valuable point because I have heard stories about "This pack has a card because my friend who works at an airport ran t through an x-ray machine..."

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

If you look closely at the scan of the Piedmont box that was opened at www.T206museum.com, you will see that this Piedmont box was from Liggett & Myers. http://t206museum.com/page/periodical_16.html Here is a scan of my Piedmont box:

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Richard brings up an interesting point I've questioned before... The image I posted above of the Piedmont box was courtsey of the T206 Museum. However, as pointed out by Richard, the pack has Ligget & Myers printed on the bottom. The ATC was broken up into the 4 companies - ATC (2nd edition), Ligget & Myers, RJ, and P Lor, in 1911. I guess it is feasable that L&M started labeling boxes in 1911 and could possibly have a t-206 inserted. However, here's the catch... I'm not quite sure when L&M started producing their own boxes (and I'm not sure if anyone really knows) and I have never seen an L&M box with a 1911 overprint on the 1910 tax stamp. It is possible that the Piedmont box from the T-206 Museum was fabricated.

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

My piedmont box is from Factory 42, 4th District, North Carolina. It has a 1910 tax stamp with no overprinting. On one end of the box it has "See that seal is not broken". On the other end it has a broken seal. Both sides of this end have the remaining part of the seal: Curious as to whether or not boxes after 1911 had something other than "Allen & Ginter Branch" on seal.

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Posted By: david

since packs often contained cards with images other the baseball players, how were the cards originally distributed, where the baseball cards only issued during the season. how did the original buyer know they were getting i baseball card or not

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Very good question and unfortunately, I can't answer all of it. Realy, your question depends on the brand. For example, Yum Yum's N403 issue actually had a tag on the tin that read something to the effect of "2 cards can be found at the bottom of this tin". Also, some brand advertised. below are two Hindu ad's stating that 2 T-206's can be found in each pack of Hindu cigarettes. If you look at the dates, you will see both are from August which answers part of your second question. These were distributed during the season (and may have continued after).

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Posted By: Scott Bob

I honestly have opened a Piedmont pack that has T206 in it and it has Ligget & Myers printed on the bottom as well. I bought that pack from a reliable source and NOT from that sick ebay seller (forgot his ebay ID) who sells resealed "t206 packs".

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Bob: Did your pack have the "Allen & Ginter Branch" on the sides of the seal? (My guess would be yes) Does anyone have a later box that has something different on the sides of the box? i.e. "Liggett & Myers" or something else? My thinking is that when Liggett & Myers took over the brand in 1911 they put something different. Am I correct?

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Ne1 have scans of any Piedmont boxes between 1912-1917? Want to see the sides of the boxes. TIA

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Posted By: Scott Bob

Richard, no the pack that I opened was a 12 cigs pack that only has a tax stamp on one side and with rice paper wrapping.

Also, I witness someone opened a 10 cigs Piedmont pack in the show like 15+ yrs ago and pulled a t206 as well. Such pack is just like the one t206museum has. Both of my 12 cigs pack and that 10 cigs pack have Liggett & Myers at the end.

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

What I believe is a true T206 box. Not only that, but it's from Factory 42, 4th. District, N.C.!!! Note the "Allen & Ginter Branch" seal on sides. Jon has the same box, but it doesn't have the seal that I have. Had a hard time taking pictures of the sides because the box is in a GAI holder. The last 2 images were taken prior to slabbing. T206Museum.com lists Factory 42 as the 10th scarcest! Does anyone have the same? After close inspection of the images at T206Museum.com & my box, I have concluded that the boxes are exactly the same! The "Allen & Ginter Brand" seal on the T206Museum.com site is barely readable, but appears to have the same exact orientation of letters.

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Posted By: Scott Bob

That 15 packs lot sold for $13K + juice... ~1k/pack
IMO, they are fairly expensive plain cigerattes if u have guts to try them.

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Posted By: Sean

where do you guys get all of these unopened t206 pack.... im thinking of getting one in the future..... or any other tobacco era pack

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"Since I'm fairly new..."

Andrew, who are you kidding?

Ahhhh, 2004.

You've come a long way, Baby.

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Posted By: Rob Ray

...Purchased the pack from Mark murphy (from CT...used to be known as "the baseball card kid" or something like that....) Dont know if he's still in business.
A while later,a friendly PA. dealer and his wife purchased the pack from me (this was about about 10 or so years ago)at an East Coast National in White Plains,and upon carefully opening it up (what a whiff from those old ciggies!),carefully pulled out a Joe McGinnity card,which was slightly stained,slightly off centered,but I would have said NM at the time (but for the staining)...no corner wear to speak of. amazing to see. I wish I had kept the sealed pack. I believe I sold it for $250. I dont have the primitive scan I sent to the dealer way back then prior to his purchasing it. I remember the dozen or so folks standing around this guy's huge table at one corner of the ECN while he opened it.
Rob Brooklyn, NY

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Posted By: JimB

Max,
There are Ty Cobb tobacco tins. I think there are only like four or five known. It is assumed that these are the tins that the Ty Cobb brand cards came in. They have an image that is cruder, but resembles the image of the T206 Cobb/bat on card on the tins. They do not employ the slogan, "King of the Smoking Tobacco World" like the cards. I don't know if it has been definatively prooven that the cards came from these tins, but it seems likely, and they are always written up that way when auctioned.
JimB

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think it's been pretty much discounted that the card came in those tins. If I remember correctly the the tobacco was loose in the tin, which means the cards should been stained int eh same way Polar Bears are because of the loose tobacco. Also, it would be highly unusual for more packaging to survive than examples of a small premium to survive. This true for just about any product that offered a premium in the package.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: leon

I don't disagree with what you say but, in this instance, it doesn't seem too illogical for a packaging made out of tin to survive in similar quantities as the ultra scarce cards. A board member won the best Cobb tin I have seen in the last Mastro Live auction for around 40k. It really covers several different collecting specialties....it's related somewhat to the cards, it's a tin, and it's Ty Cobb....making it a tri-facta (sp?) for collecting...

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Posted By: jay behrens

Look at how many OJ tins have survived relative to the number of OJ cards out there. Now take into account all the other OJ cards other than baseball players and I really doubt that you are going to have a product whose container outsurvives the premium inside, even if that container has Cobb on it. If this were the case, then you'd expect to see a whole of packaging for various Babe Ruth items to still survive.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B

I agree with your skepticism regarding the whether or not the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card was ever inserted
in these Tins. First of all, the Tin contained Cut Plug Tobacco (for chewing purposes). And 2nd, why does the
Tin depict Cobb in a batting pose rather than his Red portrait. Thirdly, product marketing in the early 1900's
was very color intensive....and, the Tin's colors do not match the colors of this Ty Cobb card.

And finally, a T-card associated with Cut-Plug tobacco invariably will have some sort of staining and none of
these 12 (or so) known Ty Cobb cards exhibit any such stains.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

After doing some picture checking, I did verify that both the Tin and the Ty Cobb back are the same factory, district, state. Just some food for thought although I tend to agree the card was not inserted in the tin and probably was a companion piece.

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Posted By: leon

Old Judge tin? The only ones I have seen weren't period and I am pretty sure would have never had cards in them. Are you talking about Mayo's?

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Posted By: DD

My knowledge on these matters is minimal, but would the gloss on the Cobb/Cobb back cards provide protection from the cut plug tobacco, if they wre issued in the tins?

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Posted By: jay behrens

yup, my bad, was thinking the Mayo lunch pail type tins.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Mark is still in business, sells on eBay, altho' the ID escapes me at the moment. I believe his house and inventory in CT burned about 5 years ago and he moved to California and started over. His unopened pack guide is great reading.

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Posted By: Sean

so anyone ever seen a unopened old jude pack (1886 or 1887)

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Posted By: jay behrens

There was only one that I know of. If I remember correctly, it was opened at the Ft Washington show and then graded 98 by SGC. I've never heard of another unopened OJ pack, but that doesn't mean there aren't are few more.

Opening that things was huge risk, to say the least. Getting a baseball player was not the only possibility. You could have also gotten an actress or other sports figure. During that era, people would have rather gotten a card of Sarah Bernhard or Lillian Russell rather than a baseball player.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Sean

So they opened it or is it still unopened? and what is the ft washington show? and has anyone else heard of an unopened old judge pack besides that one? and lol one more and jay do u kno what year the old judge pack was?

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Jay - yup you're correct - as far as I've heard, that was the only one although I agre there may be a few more tucked away. When I was researching the guide and speaking to long time cigarette collectors, none had ever heard of other unopened ones except for a few south american packs.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Sean, the pack was opened. The Ft Washington Show (not sure what it is called now) was originally called the Willow Grove Show and has been one of premier shows in the hobby. When I went in 1982 I remember there being better material there than at the National. The show is based in the Philadelphia area and is one of the few shows other than the National where you can find good vintage material.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: JimB

Maybe the tin was for the same Ty Cobb brand but it was for the chewing tobacco but that the cards only came in related cigarette packs (of which none still exist). In other words maybe the Ty Cobb brand produced both chewing (cut plug) tobacco and cigarettes, but the cards only came in cigarette packs. If it from the same factory, it is likely there is a relationship.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B....et al

Someone here asked what Factory this tin was produced in....I can say for certain that the one Tin I have seen had identified
it as Factory #33, North Carolina. And, of course it the same Factory and District as the rare Ty Cobb card.

Having seen this, I'm still skeptical that this Ty Cobb card was packaged with this Tin. But perhaps, was a premium associated
with the marketing this form of Tobacco; but, not contained within it. As, there would have been no way to protect the cards
from fresh, moist Cut Plug tobacco staining.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Ted said,
"But perhaps, was a premium associated
with the marketing this form of Tobacco; but, not contained within it. As, there would have been no way to protect the cards
from fresh, moist Cut Plug tobacco staining."

Ted,
That makes a lot of sense. If the Ty Cobb brand had limited distribution (probably only in Georgia and only for a short period of time) and the card was a premium a person had to send away for, then that would explain the extreme rarity of the card's survival.
JimB

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Posted By: Sean

So whats this south american packs? whats that?
and why would they open it when we dont know if that could be the last unopened pack of old judge!! OMg there idiots!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if you believe the Cobb with Cobb back was a premium that one had to send away for, it sounds like you may be leaning against the Cobb being part of the T206 set, because every other card in the set was available in packs.

And I believe the Old Judge pulled out of the pack that grades SGC 98 was Alcott, Mansfields. It is not only the highest graded N172 but it is also a tough card from a very rare team.

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Posted By: Paul S

Ted Z said: "Having seen this, I'm still skeptical that this Ty Cobb card was packaged with this Tin. But perhaps, was a premium associated with the marketing this form of Tobacco; but, not contained within it. As, there would have been no way to protect the cards from fresh, moist Cut Plug tobacco staining."

Didn't I read here somewhere here that 6 or 8 were found in a book? Could be explained by possibly that person smoking, or chewing, a lot of that brand, and kept redeeming (those weren't stained, I'll presume.) I mean, how many people would redeem more than once? A hoarder before his/her time!

*edited for word wrap and typos

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Posted By: barrysloate

There were 5 found in a book in Georgia and offered by REA in the 1990's.

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
It could have been a premium or it could have come in packs of cigarettes. I am not leaning either way until I see some evidence.
JimB

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Posted By: jay behrens

The only thing for certain is that Cobb/Cobb does not belong in the t206 set.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- it's interesting that noone has ever found any print advertising for the Ty Cobb brand.

You would think a Georgia newspaper or periodical from around 1915 () would give us a clue to the origin of the card.

(just teasing you with that date).

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Posted By: JimB

The only thing for certain is that every published hobby checklist from 1930-2007 considers it a T206. I am not going to debate this again. For those interested they can search old threads. The debate is boring and tedious at this point. Nobody has conclusive evidence, but everybody seems to want to speak with definative and authoratative rhetoric. I was wondering when this thread was going to come this. Why don't we cut the rhetoric and when some actual evidence comes in that conclusively establishes what the card is, we can talk about it then. Until then, I will follow hobby dinausors like Jefferson Burdick (who defined what a T206 is) and Bill Heitman who wrote the book on them.
JimB

Edited spelling per Barry's correction.