Do you think the National should be expanded to twice a year ?

[tedzan]

Since the Baltimore venue has proven that it has a lot to offer. My suggestion is that the National should be held twice a year.
Perhaps in April and then September. With the venue rotation between Baltimore, Chicago and a California city.

[barrysloate]

delete

[Leon]

I should be able to add a poll also......we will get it right eventually

[Leon]

We can learn later...I added a poll. Hope that is ok...I also voted .

[tedzan]

....for getting this poll to work.

See, you can't teach an old dinosaur new tricks


T-Rex TED

[Rob D.]

I voted no because I think, like so many other areas in the hobby that have fallen prey to the "too much of a good thing" mentality, having two Nationals a year would cheapen the product.

My guess is this poll/discussion was sparked by the recent disappointment and continued poor performance of the Philly show. Though it's sad that the former hallmark shows of the hobby are going the way of the Edsel, the solution isn't to take what is now a strong and vibrant show -- the National -- and weaken it by asking it fill the void left by the other "big" shows that are dying or have died (condolences to the friends and families of those shows, along with the entire New York Yankees organization).

The National is fine as it is.

[Matt]

I agree with Rob 100%. The result of 2 Nationals would be many dealers either going to one or the other and not both, thereby defeating the purpose.

[Exhibitman]

Not to sound like an old fart, but I really miss the days of multiple local card shows on every weekend. I used to plan day trips all over SoCal to attend shows every weekend. I cannot remember the last time there was a good local show in the L.A. area. I hear you lucky bastards in the N.Y.C. area have back-to-back-to-back show weekends this month, though.

[barrysloate]

To continue Rob's point, too many collectors would not be able to afford traveling to two nationals a year. For many this is their once a year event, one they plan for a year in advance and save up for months. In a bad economy too many people wouldn't be able to swing this. The result would be two weaker shows instead of one very good one.

[kkkkandp]

I agree that two Nationals every year is probably not a great idea, but I'd like an east coast city to be the site of a once-a-year National show more frequently than every 10 years!

When Gloria Rothstein ran her White Plains show billed as the "East Coast National" it was well attended by both dealers and buyers.

[asoriano]

"I voted no because I think, like so many other areas in the hobby that have fallen prey to the "too much of a good thing" mentality, having two Nationals a year would cheapen the product."


Exactly.

[tedzan]

Regarding this......
"......having two Nationals a year would cheapen the product."

History, during the GROWTH years (1970's to 1990's), of major BB card shows totally contradicts such an absurdity.

For example. the Philly Show started as an annual event in Willow Grove, PA in 1975. Then it was expanded to a March and September show.
Bob Schmierer expanded it to 3 times a year in 1988. And, when it moved to a larger facility (Ft. Washington) in 1993, it was expanded to 4
shows a year. Each of these expansions increased the attendance and improved the quality of this show. The same can be said for several
other shows across the country in that time period.

However, for various and sundry factors, we are no longer in a GROWTH trend in this hobby. Having the National twice a year may introduce
some new excitement into the hobby, and reverse this trend.


KEVIN

This is what I am suggesting here, the Baltimore venue would be a permanent annual East coast Show, while Chicago, and California shows
would alternate.



TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

History, during the GROWTH years (1970's to 1990's), of major BB card shows totally contradicts such an absurdity.



TED Z

Ted,

If it's such an absurd statement, then why weren't there two Nationals during the GROWTH years? Seems like that would have been a prime time to try such an experiment.

Maybe fixing the failing shows is a solution rather than breaking one of the few shows that flourishes. I'm not sure how doubling the pinnacle event of the hobby would "introduce some new excitement into the hobby." That seems like a throwaway line to me, i.e. something that sounds good but really has no basis of fact.

Again, part of the allure of the National is that it's an annual event. Take away that aspect of it, and you take away part of the allure. Pretty simple concept, and not that absurd at all, when you really consider it.

[barrysloate]

The Philadelphia show expanded from twice a year to four times a year during a period of strong growth in the hobby. Today's hobby appears to be in attrition, with the baby boomer generation getting older. It may not be a good time to think expansion. It's in fact possible that by having fewer shows, the ones that remain will be stronger.

And I'm just speculating, as I have not attended a show in over ten years.

[Tony Gordon]

While I didn't make it out to Baltimore, I talked to several Chicago dealers who relayed that sales were just okay. The location where their sales are highest is Cleveland. Naturally, I don't mind having the National in my backyard but I think dealers are shortchanged when the show is in Chicago because the promoters do a lousy job at local advertising. The Chicago Sun-Times newspaper is on life support and advertising a show in it is a wasted effort. I believe advertising on the two Chicago sports radio channels and on local cable television would increase attendance significantly.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The Philadelphia show expanded from twice a year to four times a year during a period of strong growth in the hobby. Today's hobby appears to be in attrition, with the baby boomer generation getting older. It may not be a good time to think expansion. It's in fact possible that by having fewer shows, the ones that remain will be stronger.

And I'm just speculating, as I have not attended a show in over ten years.

That's a key point I forgot to mention, Barry. Shows expanded when it was a GROWTH period. To conveniently omit that key fact when trying to make a case for two Nationals during a period of non-GROWTH, well, it just seems ... absurd.

[Leon]

First of all I don't think it's absurd to talk about 2 shows cheapening the product. If nothing else, it's a good discussion either way, but to call it absurd is absurd in itself, imo. Nothing personal Ted. I just don't think it's an absurd recommendation either way.

For me, and maybe not too many others, I would love to have 2 giant, great shows to go to in one year. I would gladly attend both. I realize I very well might be in the minority though. I would bet 2 cents this whole discussion is how REA feels on the subject of 1 vs 2 (auctions a yr). It would potentially water down the "event". I think this is a great topic and one that is easily debated on both sides. I certainly see good points for having one or two shows a year. regards

[E93]

While I would enjoy two Nationals a year if I could make the time, the reality is I probably could not. I am imagining many are in the same boat. So while it would be fun in theory, I, like others here, would worry about the weakening of the National. If a sizable percentage of regular National attendees only went to one of the two, then it would make both shows not as good. And if they both were weaker, it might mean that they both eventually lose steam. I enjoy the National so much because it is the hobby event that so many of my hobby friends try to make it to every year. I fear diluting that by having two.
JimB

[Doug]

If they had an eastern national and a western national it might give more people a chance to go that otherwise don't want to travel cross country.

[4815162342]

Q: Why is there only one National a year?

A: Wives.

[Jewish-collector]

What they could do is have an east coast city National in the spring and a west coast city National in the fall (or vice versa). And, then have a midwest coast city (probably Chicago and/or Cleveland) replace one of the coast Nationals the following year like so...

Spring 2011 East coast city National
Fall 2011 West coast city National

Spring 2012 Midwest coast city National (to replace the East)
Fall 2012 West coast city National

Spring 2013 East coast city National
Fall 2013 Midwest coast city National (to replace the West)

and so on.....

[David W]

I live in Indiana, but an East/West thing might work.

I wouldn't go to the West coast, but go to the Chicago and Cleveland Nationals.

I'm sure there are a lot of West Coasters who don't go if it is out East.

[bijoem]

I voted no.

While I would personally love to go to a 'National' every month (if I was able to) - I think if The National took place more than once per year, many or most collectors and dealers would pick which 'National' they could go to each year.

The result would be two watered down shows in the year as opposed to one as-good-as-it-gets event per year.

[Matthew H]

I wish that the small hotel shows would come back. I really enjoyed going to those with my Dad in the late 80's early 90's. I was just a kid but I really liked looking at all the old cards.

[HRBAKER]

There is nothing wrong with it, don't try to "fix" it. I don't see attrition so much as redeployment and development of buying opportunities. Ebay and the hyper-growth of good quality auctions has supplanted much of the need for these former regional "glory" shows IMO. Nothing stays the same forever.
Let's not monkey with the one good show we still have.

[kcohen]

If Net54 doesn't host a dinner, who cares?

[RiverOnFire]

The National doesn't need to expand into two shows. One show once a year is fine.

What needs to be done is add more flair to the show. I'm 23 years old and collect various stuff both vintage and modern. Cards, pennants, odd ball items, I love it all. But even I get bored eventually with the show. The autograph area is rubbish. It needs to be done up and add more dynamic.

Why can't all the Sports Hall of Fames have small traveling exhibits on display? How could would it be to go and learn about any of the sports long fabled histories and then be able to buy relics of that time all in the same building?

Personally, I (and I'm sure most of you) like the hunt and thrill of trying to find that certain *something*. The IX Center (Cle) and the Chicago location both have vast parking lots for use. Maybe allow for a "flea market" outside that flows into the building.

What would be real cool but I think logistics would kill the idea, but have the National at one location in a city, and then smaller shows around the city throughout that week to drum up interest for the National itself. It'd be similar to how cities have concerts at different venues during a weekend but the shows are all intertwined into one main event.

We need one in KC Our city and convention center is plenty large and centrally located in the US. Cheap to fly into and out of also. Why the Hype about Chy town?????????????

[calvindog]

I voted no as well. I fear that if there were two Nationals they'd just be diluted with dealers figuring they didn't need to go to both. And I just don't know if the demand is there. Look at the White Plains show: little to no prewar stuff. With all the dealers on the East Coast you'd think the shows would be better attended. Once a year is plenty though I wish there was the demand for two.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RiverOnFire

The National doesn't need to expand into two shows. One show once a year is fine.

What needs to be done is add more flair to the show. I'm 23 years old and collect various stuff both vintage and modern. Cards, pennants, odd ball items, I love it all. But even I get bored eventually with the show. The autograph area is rubbish. It needs to be done up and add more dynamic.

Why can't all the Sports Hall of Fames have small traveling exhibits on display? How could would it be to go and learn about any of the sports long fabled histories and then be able to buy relics of that time all in the same building?

Personally, I (and I'm sure most of you) like the hunt and thrill of trying to find that certain *something*. The IX Center (Cle) and the Chicago location both have vast parking lots for use. Maybe allow for a "flea market" outside that flows into the building.

What would be real cool but I think logistics would kill the idea, but have the National at one location in a city, and then smaller shows around the city throughout that week to drum up interest for the National itself. It'd be similar to how cities have concerts at different venues during a weekend but the shows are all intertwined into one main event.

Actually some of this stuff sounds interesting. Nice to think outside of the old box sometimes....good post.

[Rickyy]

Personally would love to see it back on the West Coast again, but hell would freeze over before it will ever happen again....

[makersmarkambassador]

This was a while back and I can't remember where the National was held, but in '93 or '94 they had a Tri-Star show in St.Louis that was pretty nice. Not as big as a National show but close enough. If they had a smaller show in the midwest, I think that would be nice.

[tolstoi]

I really would push for a west coast one as well the east coast one.

[Bilko G]

While i think one big National convention a year is good. I think there is demand and a need for another big show a year on the West coast as well. It doesn't have to be the National, but it has to be a "National like" show as far as size and dealers (obviously it won't be as big, but you you get my point). Have the west coast show rotate between cities like Anaheim, San Diego, Seattle and even Vancouver.

[barrysloate]

After 140 votes the poll is tied 70-70. Now that's parity.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

After 140 votes the poll is tied 70-70. Now that's parity.

Roger Goodell would be very proud of us.

[barrysloate]

Too late Jeff. The yeses have taken the lead.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Too late Jeff. The yeses have taken the lead.

It's those voters in Chicago stuffing the ballot box as usual in hopes of a "second" national in their venue.

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by kcohen

If Net54 doesn't host a dinner, who cares?

The Net54 dinner was actually the best part of the National.

[teetwoohsix]

I'd love to see it hit Vegas at least once before the year 2020

Clayton

[tedzan]

Regarding this recurring comment by several posters here....."that some dealers would pick and choose only one National, rather than
doing both shows".

Then, I ask you to recall how many shows were skipped by quality vintage card dealers like....Kevin Savage, Terry Knouse, Irv Lerner,
Roger Neufeldt, Levi Bleam & Co., Steve Verkman, Brian Dec, Wayne Varner & Bill Zimpleman, Bill Huggins, Bill McAvoy, etc., etc.....all
those years at the Philly show (prior to Hunt), and other major Boston, Chicago, California, and NY area Shows that were held 2, or 3,
or 4 times a year in which these dealers were set-up ? ?

I would bet, if you seriously think about this question and answer it honestly, it will prove that this concern of yours is irrelevant.


TED Z

[E93]

Ted,
My concern would not be that major dealers would not show up, but that my non-dealer collector friends would be divided, which over time would lessen the draw of either one. One of the big draws for me is that the National is the one show that many friends try to make it to every year. Many, myself included, might have less of a draw if it were not the one big event every year that so many people try to attend.
JimB

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding this recurring comment by several posters here....."that some dealers would pick and choose only one National, rather than
doing both shows".

Then, I ask you to recall how many shows were skipped by quality vintage card dealers like....Kevin Savage, Terry Knouse, Irv Lerner,
Roger Neufeldt, Levi Bleam & Co., Steve Verkman, Brian Dec, Wayne Varner & Bill Zimpleman, Bill Huggins, Bill McAvoy, etc., etc.....all
those years at the Philly show (prior to Hunt), and other major Boston, Chicago, California, and NY area Shows that were held 2, or 3,
or 4 times a year in which these dealers were set-up ? ?

I would bet, if you seriously think about this question and answer it honestly, it will prove that this concern of yours is irrelevant.


TED Z

Ted,

I know your preference is to gloss over and ignore pieces of information that contradict your theories, but the landscape of the hobby was different then than it is now.

Then = The hobby was experiencing GROWTH

Now = Not as much GROWTH

Hope this helps.

[barrysloate]

Ted and I discussed his last post earlier today, and my feeling was all the dealers he cited traveled east to do four shows a year because it was profitable for them to do so. Whether it would make sense for any dealers to set up for two nationals a year today would depend on economics. Again, it's a different climate and a difficult time for businesses to be expanding. It may even be time for the Philadelphia show to cut back to two or three times a year instead of the current four.

[chaddurbin]

i voted for 2 just in case they'd consider having the west coast on the rotation again...self-serving i guess as that's the only chance i get to meet up with jimb again as he's big-leagued me since stumbling on this board and finding cooler friends...

[Doug]

I'd just like them to have one in Cincinnati so I hopefully I could get a chance to go.

[tedzan]

As usual you selectively pick & choose to ignore anything I (or others) post. Here are my comments regarding GROWTH trends in the hobby
that I posted back in Post #12.

And, do NOT say you didn't read this.....because you quoted my last sentence in this post in your attempt to be a wise-ass (in post #13).

My comments in post #12......

""History, during the GROWTH years (1970's to 1990's), of major BB card shows totally contradicts such an absurdity.

For example. the Philly Show started as an annual event in Willow Grove, PA in 1975. Then it was expanded to a March and September show.
Bob Schmierer expanded it to 3 times a year in 1988. And, when it moved to a larger facility (Ft. Washington) in 1993, it was expanded to 4
shows a year. Each of these expansions increased the attendance and improved the quality of this show. The same can be said for several
other shows across the country in that time period.

However, for various and sundry factors, we are no longer in a GROWTH trend in this hobby. Having the National twice a year may introduce
some new excitement into the hobby, and reverse this trend."


Rob....stop being such a freakin' contrarian.....just grow up, will you.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

As usual you selectively pick & choose to ignore anything I (or others) post. Here are my comments regarding GROWTH trends in the hobby
that I posted back in Post #12.

And, do NOT say you didn't read this.....because you quoted my last sentence in this post in your attempt to be a wise-ass (in post #13).

My comments in post #12......

""History, during the GROWTH years (1970's to 1990's), of major BB card shows totally contradicts such an absurdity.

For example. the Philly Show started as an annual event in Willow Grove, PA in 1975. Then it was expanded to a March and September show.
Bob Schmierer expanded it to 3 times a year in 1988. And, when it moved to a larger facility (Ft. Washington) in 1993, it was expanded to 4
shows a year. Each of these expansions increased the attendance and improved the quality of this show. The same can be said for several
other shows across the country in that time period.

However, for various and sundry factors, we are no longer in a GROWTH trend in this hobby. Having the National twice a year may introduce
some new excitement into the hobby, and reverse this trend."


Rob....stop being such a freakin' contrarian.....just grow up, will you.


TED Z

Ted,

I'm not picking and choosing what you say. The simple fact is you're basing your opinions (namely, expanding the National) on a time when the hobby was in a much healthier state. You can cite all you want about how shows grew and expanded when the hobby was in its heyday. But the hobby, and the economy, is not experiencing that heyday right now. But, as I said (and has been proved time and time and time again), you choose to ignore facts that don't support your stances, whether it be the National, uncut sheets, T206 proof strips, etc., etc., etc.

Also, thank you for reminding us about Ted's No. 1 rule: Disagree with Ted and you're either:

1. A wise ass

2. A contrarian

3. A derailer of his threads

4. Someone who "gangs up" on him

5. All of the above.

Ted, I understand that you don't like it when people disagree with you, so let me offer you a pacifier:

I think it would be a great idea to have two Nationals a year.

There. Happy?

[HRBAKER]

Rob that was very counter-contrarian of you. I would agree that I don't think that it is an overall lack of quality shows that is keeping the hobby from expanding. I think it is a combination of overexpansion in the "heyday," genuine lack of interest for the most part in the younger set (natural), the like-it-or-not perception that it is a hobby rife with chicanery and charlatans, and the economy. I really don't see a 2nd National as being a panacea for any of that. On the other hand it would be fun to go to two every year.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Doug

If they had an eastern national and a western national it might give more people a chance to go that otherwise don't want to travel cross country.

This is a key point. I would attend twice as many Nationals if it ever came back to California, Las Vegas, Seattle, Portland, Phoenix or even Denver. I am sure that many other potential attendees (West of the Mississippi) who currently skip it would attend more as well.

So you might lose a few East Coast/Midwest people, but you would gain many others. That's my admittedly biased left coast viewpoint.