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#1
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forgery
Yes Richard please control yourself. Dont make me reach thru my computer screen and give you a slap!
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#2
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Provenance is not an exact science. Usually the very best provenance is finding something that has been with a single family for a long time, say a ball Babe Ruth signed in the 1940's, or a Beatles signature from 1964, that has never been on the market ever, and you become the very first owner after the original family. But even that is based upon feeling confidant that the family isn't lying. And sometimes they do lie. Good judgment and common sense is important.
Last edited by barrysloate; 01-14-2012 at 07:00 PM. |
#3
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Quote:
The art world and the autograph world obviously operate very differently. People in the art world will knowingly create a paper trail for a piece. But the family that is selling me a 50 or 60 or more year old autograph book, that grandma got by standing outside the NYC nightclubs, did not create a paper trail for the book. They would never have thought of doing that. You judge the autographs and you appreciate their word of mouth story. Barry and I seem to have used the word provenance a bit loosely according to the definition presented in this thread. But as far as I know that word has been used in this hobby for "word of mouth stories."
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-14-2012 at 07:34 PM. |
#4
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Richard- if someone wanted to make up an incredibly elaborate story that seemed so convincing nobody would even question it, I'm sure they could. That's why you really have to assess the story and decide for yourself. It's not a science. I've heard some very credible stories attached to really significant pieces, and there is always a part of me that wonders if they are no more than just very carefully thought out lies.
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#5
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Quote:
I have to tell the board a good story here. Years ago, get a phone call from a guy who tells me he has a Munson era Yankee signed team ball. We made an appointment and he shows up with his two sons. He had told me his story about how he got into the dugout and the ball was signed for him. Well when I meet him, he proceeds to pull out a facsimile machine signed ball. I tell him what he has and he gets really angry. "I got the Yankees to sign this ball." He is raising his voice to me, in front of his two sons. Well I said "you may have gotten the Yankees to sign a ball, but not this ball." I was glad that this was taking place in front of a couple of people as he obviously could not do anything, but he actually shook me up wth his phony anger.
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-14-2012 at 08:04 PM. |
#6
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forgery
See Richard great people live in Ct.!! My mother and father grew up in the Bronx.
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#7
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Me too,,, some good times there as a kid.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#8
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Quote:
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"' `But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' |
#9
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Barry, According to the prior post, I think you and I have just had a great fall and nobody can put us back together again.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-14-2012 at 08:25 PM. |
#10
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It wouldn't be the first time.
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#11
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forgery
Richard,
Alerton Ave and Morris Ave |
#12
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I have read this thread over and over again and I have one big question. If David had not received the advice of Jodi and had placed this ball in an auction with a top auction house, would the letter he had from 1999 been good enough to allow the ball to be sold.
Or would the auction house re-examine the ball now? I think they would re-examine it. At the time this ball was examined authenticators had no idea what skills certain forgers had. This ball was done by one of the best. I think that some of the better authenticators now know the work of this forger (Johnny F..g ) extremely well and probably would never pass it. That is why it baffles me why you are thanking someone for not putting up a ball that we all know today would never pass a top auction house. |
#13
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Quote:
It would be easier for you to reach over and slap my son, he lives in CT too.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
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