Triple Crown ball with clubhouse sigs?? What??

[RichardSimon]

http://iconicmemorabilia.com/LotDeta...igned-Baseball

They are offering a Triple Crown winners signed baseball Including: (these words are from the online catalog) Ted Williams (clubhouse), Frank Robinson, Mickey Mantle, Yaz (clubhouse). Signed on an un-official baseball. This item was obtained from another auction house where it was per-certified by PSA/DNA. (this is a statement on the auction page from the auctioneer, there is no COA pictured).

Another pre-certified PSA baseball (according to the auctioneer) except how can the Williams and Yaz signatures be called clubhouse? Did they have their clubhouse boys sign a triple crown ball long after they retired?

[drc]

Retired clubhouse boys.

[travrosty]

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...39&lotNo=44084

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...38&lotNo=43108

i dont understand just what clubhouse this could be?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...39&lotNo=44084

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...38&lotNo=43108

i dont understand just what clubhouse this could be?

Is this contagious,, auctioneers calling these balls clubhouse. What does this mean? Balls signed after retirement that are not authentically signed are now called clubhouse?????
Heritage sold the ball that is now being sold by Iconic and they both call it clubhouse. Wha???

I am saving these pages with screen shot.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

Retired clubhouse boys.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Is this contagious,, auctioneers calling these balls clubhouse. What does this mean? Balls signed after retirement that are not authentically signed are now called clubhouse?????
Heritage sold the ball that is now being sold by Iconic and they both call it clubhouse. Wha???

I am saving these pages with screen shot.

It's called getting paid. Whatever it takes....

[GrayGhost]

Beautiful. A ball ruined by two forgeries by the former Retired bat boy of the country club where Ted and Carl played in a special Coach's Corner golf tournament.

IMO, t hat ball is near worthless as it is. ruins the good signatures, plus whats worse is that those two forgeries are SO HIDEOUS

Ball should be taken down

[steve B]

So here's what I think is a good question.

Lets say the original owner was getting the signatures through the mail, and sent the ball to the Red Sox to try to get the Yaz and Williams sigs. I know in the late 70's Williams was a "special hitting coach" while Yaz was playing.

So maybe those two were ghost signed by someone then?
Still not real, and not likely knowing a little about Williams signing at the park back then (Donation to the Jimmy fund, or no signature. And less than whatever he asked got a rubber stamp!)

Wouldn't that scenario make the description accurate?

And if that's accurate what does it say about the other signatures?

Steve B
PS - That ball would be something I'd call a good candidate for one of those cut signature cards- mostly wrecked as -is, but with a few good bits.

[Sean1125]

So what is "pre-certified by PSA/DNA"?

I've seen the term come up with a decent amount of controversy lately.

Does it mean PSA has actually looked at it and issued a blanket CoA or the auction house is just using PSA/DNA's likeness with their own in house authentication (this is what I've seemed to read).

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by steve B

So here's what I think is a good question.

Lets say the original owner was getting the signatures through the mail, and sent the ball to the Red Sox to try to get the Yaz and Williams sigs. I know in the late 70's Williams was a "special hitting coach" while Yaz was playing.

So maybe those two were ghost signed by someone then?
Still not real, and not likely knowing a little about Williams signing at the park back then (Donation to the Jimmy fund, or no signature. And less than whatever he asked got a rubber stamp!)

Wouldn't that scenario make the description accurate?

And if that's accurate what does it say about the other signatures?

Steve B
PS - That ball would be something I'd call a good candidate for one of those cut signature cards- mostly wrecked as -is, but with a few good bits.

Steve - certainly a highly unlikely scenario but not impossible. But don't you think if that was the case the auction house(s) would have used that scenario to describe this ball??

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

So what is "pre-certified by PSA/DNA"?

I've seen the term come up with a decent amount of controversy lately.

Does it mean PSA has actually looked at it and issued a blanket CoA or the auction house is just using PSA/DNA's likeness with their own in house authentication (this is what I've seemed to read).

PSA's definition of "Pre-Certified" from their website, near the bottom of the page:

http://www.psacard.com/about/what_is_grading.chtml

"PSA/DNA Pre-Certified
As a hobbyist, you may see the PSA/DNA Pre-Certified logo in various auction house catalogues or online. It is a service unique to auctions and to autographs found within. The purpose of the service is to let the prospective bidders know whether an autographed auction item will pass PSA/DNA should that person win the item and want to send it in for authentication immediately after the auction closes. If you see the Pre-Certified logo, it means the item has been reviewed by our experts and is absolutely guaranteed to pass."

Feel free to speculate what this actually means in practice, but it does not mean that PSA gives the auction house wholesale license to rubber-stamp their name on any item the in-house authenticator deems legitimate.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

PSA's definition of "Pre-Certified" from their website, near the bottom of the page:

http://www.psacard.com/about/what_is_grading.chtml

"PSA/DNA Pre-Certified
As a hobbyist, you may see the PSA/DNA Pre-Certified logo in various auction house catalogues or online. It is a service unique to auctions and to autographs found within. The purpose of the service is to let the prospective bidders know whether an autographed auction item will pass PSA/DNA should that person win the item and want to send it in for authentication immediately after the auction closes. If you see the Pre-Certified logo, it means the item has been reviewed by our experts and is absolutely guaranteed to pass."

Feel free to speculate what this actually means in practice, but it does not mean that PSA gives the auction house wholesale license to rubber-stamp their name on any item the in-house authenticator deems legitimate.

I don't get it. Why would PSA look at an item to see if it would pass? Wouldn't that the results of that examination be the same as passing? Why not just f'ing pass it then? Or is it just another scam, to get someone to pay twice for essentially the same service?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I don't get it. Why would PSA look at an item to see if it would pass? Wouldn't that the results of that examination be the same as passing? Why not just f'ing pass it then? Or is it just another scam, to get someone to pay twice for essentially the same service?

Well, the collector is not paying twice but PSA is collecting from the auction house and the collector, so the collector is certainly being victimized, but what else is new?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I don't get it. Why would PSA look at an item to see if it would pass? Wouldn't that the results of that examination be the same as passing? Why not just f'ing pass it then? Or is it just another scam, to get someone to pay twice for essentially the same service?

exactly, they would have people pay for it 5 times if they could figure out how to do it.

[steve B]

I would like to think they would, but if it's changed hands a few times something like that backstory could have been ignored and isn't known now.


But yes, very unlikely. From what I recall neither guy was all that approachable in the late 70's early 80's.

How well do the Williams and Yaz line up with known actual ghost signed items? I'd think that with enough examples an actual clubhouse sig could be told from an outright fake? (Maybe I've got the wrong terms? How to indicate a fake recieved through legit channels like TTM and one meant purely to decieve?)

Steve B

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Steve - certainly a highly unlikely scenario but not impossible. But don't you think if that was the case the auction house(s) would have used that scenario to describe this ball??

[J.McMurry]

I think it's time for PSA to unveil phase 2 of their master plan,...

The Pre-Pre-Certification !!!!!!

[toyman55]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAWLINGS-TRI...0#ht_532wt_709

Ebay is selling a terrible one.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by toyman55

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAWLINGS-TRI...0#ht_532wt_709

Ebay is selling a terrible one.

Dear God in Heaven, that is HIDEOUS. All the way.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

I think it's time for PSA to unveil phase 2 of their master plan,...

The Pre-Pre-Certification !!!!!!

We asked an auction house that used 'auction loa' and now 'precertification' just what that meant and how it was administered, and they couldn't tell us.

They kept going around in a circle, using generalities and we couldn't get a straight answer from them just how the authentication company 'authenticates' anything using an auction loa or precertification. And why the need to have the customer pay again to send it in and get the "real cert", the one that proves it is really real.

The auction house wants to sell the item with the auction loa or precertification so they can assure the customer that they are getting something that has been thoroughly checked out. Looks like it is not the case in many circumstances. The auction loa was described as a preliminary review, not going through the full rigorous inspection of the full LOA. Well, if that is the case, then it's worthless in my opinion.

The pre-certification is suppose to be the same as an LOA, it is guaranteed to pass 100%. But you don't get the piece of paper, you have to pay extra for it. But we couldn't figure out just how the pre-certification process differs from the 'auction loa'?

That's customer service for you.

I am working on an authentication customer bill of rights, that will be adopted by none of these companies, but it is important to show them what the customer deserves as opposed to what they are getting now.

[Wymers Auction]

They have exemplars of all the bat boys and it is authenticated that way. It is an authentic clubhouse signature.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

They have exemplars of all the bat boys and it is authenticated that way. It is an authentic clubhouse signature.

Wha??????

This ball that we are talking about was signed years after Ted Williams playing days. The signature bears ZERO resemblance to the Williams signed baseballs that I have seen from his playing days with a clubhouse signature.
I can understand PSA having exemplars of Ted Williams clubhouse signatures from his playing days but a clubhouse signature allegedly signed, years after he retired??? And they have exemplars of that? I find that amazing.
And how do you substantiate that it is authenticated that way? If it is a pre-cert, as far as I know, there is no detailed info about the item on a pre-cert.
There was no such information, if my memory is correct, on their auction certs. which are supposedly the same as a pre-cert.

[travrosty]

clubhouse sounds better than not authentic which sounds better than fake.


I thought a clubhouse signature would have to be signed in or near an actual clubhouse. Just where is the clubhouse for these signatures? In the cornfield in Iowa?

If you sign it they will come.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

clubhouse sounds better than not authentic which sounds better than fake.


I thought a clubhouse signature would have to be signed in or near an actual clubhouse. Just where is the clubhouse for these signatures? In the cornfield in Iowa?

If you sign it they will come.

The cornfield in Iowa, son of a gun, now I know where so many of those CC autographs come from .