FB cards as an investment?

[jefferyepayne]

Hey all,

FB cards have historically played second fiddle to BB cards in terms of popularity and price. As football continues to grow in popularity, do you think this will translate into faster appreciation for old FB cards as compared to BB cards?

jeff

[Leon]

I don't know. This board isn't known for football cards, per se', and it's hard for me to say if old FB will be good long term investments. That being said if they don't have a ton of value today and they catch on, then the appreciation could actually be faster than BB cards, as baseball card collecting has been around (value wise) for around 60-70 yrs or so, and is more mature.

[skelly]

I have to think that the older football ( we'll say pre 65 ) has a good upside compared to baseball. The few collectors I know ( mid 30's ) are more into the vintage football. It's just easier to complete the sets with fewer cards in them, etc... with that said ebay and other online sources have opened up the world of vintage football to those who are interested. I remember going to shows when I was in middle school in the late 80's and just being fascinated with the older football cards. They just seemed so rare back in the day.

[Publius]

Football is the most popular sport in America. It's a matter of time before kids growing up watching or attending games have the discretionary money to buy cards of players they watched growing up. If the NFL does a good job raveling the history up, people will branch out into more vintage. Less football was created so the price will reflect that.

Don't sell N54 short Leon, it's well renowned for its solid football base.....

[smotan_02]

I love the older football card sets due to the ability to complete them in a mid to high grade for a decent price. An early 50s BB set would be impossible for me to complete. However, I completed a '55 All American set in near 8s in about 1.5 years. The popularity will see massive growth for this specific reason as new collectors move into vintage projects. Plus, the cards look great.

[jefferyepayne]

That's always been my gut feel as well. To me, old football cards are very undervalued as compared to baseball.

I wish there was a way to really get this forum rolling. I agree that there are many more football card fans lurking within N54 ... we need to figure out how to get them to engage more.

jeff

Originally Posted by Publius

Football is the most popular sport in America. It's a matter of time before kids growing up watching or attending games have the discretionary money to buy cards of players they watched growing up. If the NFL does a good job raveling the history up, people will branch out into more vintage. Less football was created so the price will reflect that.

Don't sell N54 short Leon, it's well renowned for its solid football base.....

[smotan_02]

This is one of the many threads I check in my "Net54 routine". It is usually second and usually a disappointment due to a lack of posts. I guess I could post more, but I don't have many cards and don't have much to post. Guess I could post more as I encourage other people to do the same.

[jefferyepayne]

This forum is the first one I always check but usually there isn't anything new posted. Maybe we should take a cue from the BB forums and have a set of common threads that we do on a periodic basis to generate interest and get more people engaged. Some that come to mind from reading the BB forums include:

* Show your pickups of the month (we've done this a few times so far but could do it every month)

* Show me your XXXXX. Pick a famous player and have people show their various cards for that player. With less FB cards than BB, these threads probably won't go as long or be as varied as BB is but we can try it out

* What's your Monster Vintage Football Number? Design a numbering scheme for a bunch of vintage football sets together and keep score as to how many of the total cards people have

* Discussions of major auctions going on and what's available from a football perspective

* Discussions on the most difficult sets / cards to obtain

jeff

Originally Posted by smotan_02

This is one of the many threads I check in my "Net54 routine". It is usually second and usually a disappointment due to a lack of posts. I guess I could post more, but I don't have many cards and don't have much to post. Guess I could post more as I encourage other people to do the same.

[andybecker]

[QUOTE=Publius;985845] It's a matter of time before kids growing up watching or attending games have the discretionary money to buy cards of players they watched growing up. QUOTE]

they might even have disposable income

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

This forum is the first one I always check but usually there isn't anything new posted. Maybe we should take a cue from the BB forums and have a set of common threads that we do on a periodic basis to generate interest and get more people engaged. Some that come to mind from reading the BB forums include:

* Show your pickups of the month (we've done this a few times so far but could do it every month)

* Show me your XXXXX. Pick a famous player and have people show their various cards for that player. With less FB cards than BB, these threads probably won't go as long or be as varied as BB is but we can try it out

* What's your Monster Vintage Football Number? Design a numbering scheme for a bunch of vintage football sets together and keep score as to how many of the total cards people have

* Discussions of major auctions going on and what's available from a football perspective

* Discussions on the most difficult sets / cards to obtain

jeff

I like all those...Im in.

[Leon]

Guys, from a person who is closing in on 7000 posts on this board and more than twice as many than all but a few people, I can absolutely tell you that more threads and posts begat more threads and posts. If you want more action then you need to be the one to start it. If you build it, they will come .

[Publius]

[QUOTE=andybecker;985986]

Originally Posted by Publius

It's a matter of time before kids growing up watching or attending games have the discretionary money to buy cards of players they watched growing up. QUOTE]

they might even have disposable income

. I was thinking of you and laughing as I typed that Andy!

Great subjects guys. I see someone started a Leaf thread, think I may just meander on over there and check it out....

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Leon

Guys, from a person who is closing in on 7000 posts on this board and more than twice as many than all but a few people, I can absolutely tell you that more threads and posts begat more threads and posts. If you want more action then you need to be the one to start it. If you build it, they will come .

Leon, football by your own admission isn't even a primary function of N54. It's lumped in with "water cooler talk" as a forum for F's sake. So the " if you build it the will come" rhetoric starts at the top, meaning you! Make N54 a tad bit more football friendly and you'll see more football posts, ie more traffic, ie more banner add money.

[jimthorpe]

Joe, you need to be more candid in your posts. This beating around the bush is confusing for everyone.

However, this time I must agree with you...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Publius

Leon, football by your own admission isn't even a primary function of N54. It's lumped in with "water cooler talk" as a forum for F's sake. So the " if you build it the will come" rhetoric starts at the top, meaning you! Make N54 a tad bit more football friendly and you'll see more football posts, ie more traffic, ie more banner add money.

Great suggestion. So how does one make the forum more football friendly?

[jefferyepayne]

Well, since you asked ...

I would assume there is not enough football traffic on the site to justify more than one football forum (i.e. pre-war, post-war, etc.) so any suggestions along those lines are probably DOA and I would agree.

It would help if the football forum was elevated to "above the fold" on the web site so it is closer to the top. I don't know how the site evolved but I would reorganize it as follows:

Main Forums
* Pre-war baseball forum
* Post-war baseball forum
* Vintage football forum
* Vintage memorabilia forum

Buy/Sell/Trade
(keep as is)

Watercooler
* All sports
* Off topics & new members

Other Forums
* Boxing/Wrestling
* Hockey/Basketball/Tennis
* Golf/Soccer/Cricket

This way all of the major forums are together and at the top. Perhaps the hardcore baseball people would not like this but it make organizational sense if you want to better highlight football.

jeff

Originally Posted by Leon

Great suggestion. So how does one make the forum more football friendly?

[Myachelydra]

Nice thread Jeff...if you do searches on the main board you will find that we have similar discussions in the past, including one titled "football sucks". Obviously those are not my feelings as football has been a passion of mine as a player, coach, collector, and researcher for the last 35 years.

Football collecting is at the beginning of a renaissance of sorts. As people like Bob Swick of Gridiron Greats provide a vehicle for collectors to share information about the game and collectibles the hobby side will continue to gain momentum. Knowledge, interest, and prices of vintage football collectibles have escalated in the past few years.

I collect vintage baseball as well and love both sports...many vintage baseball collectors do not share multiple interests which could explain the relegation of football to the water cooler section. In defense of the policy, Net54 was set up to be a vintage baseball forum.

Shoot me an email and we can discuss some potential outlets to discuss vintage football.

[k-dog]

Have an entire part of the forum be only John Facenda soundbites!

"The frozen tundra of Lambeau Field"

I loved that guy!

[jefferyepayne]

I get it in terms of Net54. It IS called Net54baseball, afterall. But since Leon asked, I figured I would answer. He is the boss ;-)

I too collect baseball cards and love baseball. I've never understood the "In order to love my sport I have to hate all others" approach to life but whatever. I don't collect basketball/boxing/golf/etc. cards but certainly have nothing against those that do or their sport.

I would love a place where vintage baseball and football discussions could co-exist but am certainly interested in other outlets for vintage football if this is not a realistic possibility at N54. I'll drop you an email.

jeff

Originally Posted by Myachelydra

Nice thread Jeff...if you do searches on the main board you will find that we have similar discussions in the past, including one titled "football sucks". Obviously those are not my feelings as football has been a passion of mine as a player, coach, collector, and researcher for the last 35 years.

Football collecting is at the beginning of a renaissance of sorts. As people like Bob Swick of Gridiron Greats provide a vehicle for collectors to share information about the game and collectibles the hobby side will continue to gain momentum. Knowledge, interest, and prices of vintage football collectibles have escalated in the past few years.

I collect vintage baseball as well and love both sports...many vintage baseball collectors do not share multiple interests which could explain the relegation of football to the water cooler section. In defense of the policy, Net54 was set up to be a vintage baseball forum.

Shoot me an email and we can discuss some potential outlets to discuss vintage football.

[Leon]

Thanks for the suggestion on the forums. Unfortunately I can't seem to always make them work (and align) the way I want them to. The Watercooler section and the newly formed autograph section are both in physical places I didn't want but it's all I could do. I will continue trying to make it better without sacrificing the main focus....regards

[smotan_02]

Im just happy to have a place to call home. We just need to use what we have. I appreciate Jeff's increase in activity and his push for others to post more.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

This forum is the first one I always check but usually there isn't anything new posted. Maybe we should take a cue from the BB forums and have a set of common threads that we do on a periodic basis to generate interest and get more people engaged. Some that come to mind from reading the BB forums include:

* Show your pickups of the month (we've done this a few times so far but could do it every month)

* Show me your XXXXX. Pick a famous player and have people show their various cards for that player. With less FB cards than BB, these threads probably won't go as long or be as varied as BB is but we can try it out

* What's your Monster Vintage Football Number? Design a numbering scheme for a bunch of vintage football sets together and keep score as to how many of the total cards people have

* Discussions of major auctions going on and what's available from a football perspective

* Discussions on the most difficult sets / cards to obtain

jeff

MONSTER NUMBER (Patent pending) is a proprietary entity developed and managed by yours truly. "The Monster" is a specific reference to the T206 baseball card set. Any tangential reference or dissemination of this term without the express written consent of the owner (frankbmd) is strictly prohibited.

Monsters of the Midway (da Bears) not withstanding, application of this term to a pigskin collection would require appropriate licensing and fees to be determined by the Monster Board of Directors.

My lawyer is ..........

[jefferyepayne]

Hey Frank,

So I don't know you or your sense of humor. Whether this plus the PM you sent me was a joke or a serious message, it's pretty funny and made my day...

jeff

Originally Posted by frankbmd

MONSTER NUMBER (Patent pending) is a proprietary entity developed and managed by yours truly. "The Monster" is a specific reference to the T206 baseball card set. Any tangential reference or dissemination of this term without the express written consent of the owner (frankbmd) is strictly prohited.

Monsters of the Midway (da Bears) not withstanding, application of this term to a pigskin collection would require appropriate licensing and fees to be determined by the Monster Board of Directors.

My lawyer is ..........

[frankbmd]

Accusations of levity and or sarcasm are frequently well founded, but may at times be used as a tool to a make a significant contribution. i would prefer to double space my posts, so that it would be easier to read between the lines. Hopefully I can offer support for the football end of this enterprise, rather than be type cast solely as a Monster Junkie. After all I am an owner of the Green Bay Packers.

[jefferyepayne]

As someone with a lowly Monster Number of 184, I bow down to your baseball cardliness but refuse to bend when it comes to Vintage Football. Go ahead and create a Monster Football Number and let's see who comes out on top.

jeff

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Accusations of levity and or sarcasm are frequently well founded, but may at times be used as a tool to a make a significant contribution. i would prefer to double space my posts, so that it would be easier to read between the lines. Hopefully I can offer support for the football end of this enterprise, rather than be type cast solely as a Monster Junkie. After all I am an owner of the Green Bay Packers.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

As someone with a lowly Monster Number of 184, I bow down to your baseball cardliness but refuse to bend when it comes to Vintage Football. Go ahead and create a Monster Football Number and let's see who comes out on top.

jeff

Established in 1919, nothing represents Vintage Football better than the team from Green Bay. I therefore propose the following Monster Vintage Football Number:

1 points for each vintage Hall of Fame football player (maximum of 9)
10 points for each vintage Green Bay Packer HOFer (maximum of 9)
900 points for a share of Green Bay Packers stock.
1 point for a Curly Lambeau autograph.

-50 points if any of the Hall of Famers above played for Da Bears.

Okay, Jeff, let's see. 900 for the stock, 90 for 9 GB HOFers on the 61 team card, 9 for 9 other HOFers including Thorpe, Graham, Baugh, Unitas, Gifford, Robustelli, Layne, Van Brocklin & Tittle. Ooops, no Lambeau auto. Looks like I'm at 999. What's your MVFN, Jeff?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Established in 1919, nothing represents Vintage Football better than the team from Green Bay. I therefore propose the following Monster Vintage Football Number:

1 points for each vintage Hall of Fame football player (maximum of 9)
10 points for each vintage Green Bay Packer HOFer (maximum of 9)
900 points for a share of Green Bay Packers stock.
1 point for a Curly Lambeau autograph.

-50 points if any of the Hall of Famers above played for Da Bears.

Okay, Jeff, let's see. 900 for the stock, 90 for 9 GB HOFers on the 61 team card, 9 for 9 other HOFers including Thorpe, Graham, Baugh, Unitas, Gifford, Robustelli, Layne, Van Brocklin & Tittle. Ooops, no Lambeau auto. Looks like I'm at 999. What's your MVFN, Jeff?

Ok, I think we are close to having something here. I would request only one *slight* modification. Since the baseball monster number for each card is given a value based upon its relative worth as compared to the other cards in the set (a very rough approach, I might add), I believe we should adjust your MVFN numbers to account for this. We can probably agree that HOF'ers are all worth 1 point and also Curly Lambeau's auto as you stated but let's talk about the Green Bay Packer stock you own. You see, I looked into purchasing a share of Green Bay Packer stock the last time they offered it to the public and found out something very interesting when I read the stock agreements. THESE SHARE ARE NOT WORTH ANYTHING. Not redeemable, not sellable, not resaleable, not worth a nickel and explicitly set up to never be of any value. So to be fair, after consultation with my crack accountant, he calculates that the MVFN number for a share of Green Bay Packer stock should be assigned the value zero, the same exact value that one would assign to a Ryan Leaf rookie card.

Ready to play?

jeff

[frankbmd]

Jeff,

You're just jealous. You are correct that the stock will never trade on the NYSE, Nasdaq or even on the Manitowoc Ferry, but one can argue that Green Bay is the most successful small market professional sports franchise in the history of the world. Furthermore with over one million owners, there continued presence in Green Bay should not be jeopardized by an Al Davis type owner, who took his team down and up the West Coast like a yoyo.

The stock certificates can be inherited, which is a problem for me with three sons and two daughters. I guess I'll just have to buy more shares the next time around.

With my tongue out of my cheek for a moment, I have no real plan to create a meaningful Monster Football Number. Admittedly I presumed that you did not own any stock and created the previous draft solely to insure that I would come out on top, albeit without Curly Lambeau

The "T206" Monster Number has many critics, but

The cards are not impossible to find.
Collectors like to finish sets.
Values assigned to the Big Four are meaningful, but quite arbitrary.
The key to its success has been the simplicity of calculation for the collector.
Keep it simple stupid was my guiding principle. No rare backs, no grades, no HOF premium, ... just the card.
I cite over 6500 "hits" with no sign of slowing down as ample evidence that I must have done something right and that there was demand or interest in the concept.

In football I cannot see the equivalent set or sets, with broad base appeal that are amply available, but yet nearly impossible to complete. The football sets of the 50s are relatively easy to complete. The Chicles with only 36 cards, 12 of which are quite difficult, would not have comparable breadth of interest. Other older issues would appeal to type collectors as in baseball, but probably would not fly for long as a component of a MFN.

I'm sure that you and others have terrific vintage football collections. I would be delighted as well if one day my 57 Topps Football set appreciated significantly as a result of the increased general popularity of football. I'm collecting 1950 Bowman Football (but not 1950 Bowman Baseball), perhaps for that reason.

If you really want to brainstorm this further, shoot me an Email and we can arrange to talk. By the way I had to check online to make sure there were 9 Hall of Famers on the 1961 Packers. I really had no idea, who was in and who wasn't.

Frank

PS - i rather like the Packer collage I created for this thread.

[jefferyepayne]

Sorry, meant to double space my response

Seriously, I haven't been able to figure out a decent monster number for vintage football. I agree that no set makes sense as they are too small. Perhaps a combination of pre-war football sets would produce a challenging monster number to shoot for but probably wouldn't be of interest to most people.

I like your monster number. KISS is usually the best approach for things like this.

jeff

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Jeff,

You're just jealous. You are correct that the stock will never trade on the NYSE, Nasdaq or even on the Manitowoc Ferry, but one can argue that Green Bay is the most successful small market professional sports franchise in the history of the world. Furthermore with over one million owners, there continued presence in Green Bay should not be jeopardized by an Al Davis type owner, who took his team down and up the West Coast like a yoyo.

The stock certificates can be inherited, which is a problem for me with three sons and two daughters. I guess I'll just have to buy more shares the next time around.

With my tongue out of my cheek for a moment, I have no real plan to create a meaningful Monster Football Number. Admittedly I presumed that you did not own any stock and created the previous draft solely to insure that I would come out on top, albeit without Curly Lambeau

The "T206" Monster Number has many critics, but

The cards are not impossible to find.
Collectors like to finish sets.
Values assigned to the Big Four are meaningful, but quite arbitrary.
The key to its success has been the simplicity of calculation for the collector.
Keep it simple stupid was my guiding principle. No rare backs, no grades, no HOF premium, ... just the card.
I cite over 6500 "hits" with no sign of slowing down as ample evidence that I must have done something right and that there was demand or interest in the concept.

In football I cannot see the equivalent set or sets, with broad base appeal that are amply available, but yet nearly impossible to complete. The football sets of the 50s are relatively easy to complete. The Chicles with only 36 cards, 12 of which are quite difficult, would not have comparable breadth of interest. Other older issues would appeal to type collectors as in baseball, but probably would not fly for long as a component of a MFN.

I'm sure that you and others have terrific vintage football collections. I would be delighted as well if one day my 57 Topps Football set appreciated significantly as a result of the increased general popularity of football. I'm collecting 1950 Bowman Football (but not 1950 Bowman Baseball), perhaps for that reason.

If you really want to brainstorm this further, shoot me an Email and we can arrange to talk. By the way I had to check online to make sure there were 9 Hall of Famers on the 1961 Packers. I really had no idea, who was in and who wasn't.

Frank

PS - i rather like the Packer collage I created for this thread.

[pgellis]

My # is 900 since I too am an "owner" of the Green Bay Packers!

[SetBuilder]

The 1950 Bowman football set is a work of art. I'd go with that one.

[Publius]

You could almost take the football cards from Joey O's top .200 card set and assign those point values. That would be a brief way, maybe sprinkle in a point for every set you are over 30% on, another point if you're 100% on it. Who knows, so many ways

[jefferyepayne]

Joey O's .200 card list? What is this list?

jeff

[BigRedOne]

Hey all!

This is my first post here. Ive been a long term member of both the PSA(recently banned) and the SGC boards.

While I have some oddball cards from all sports as well as non-sport issues, FOOTBALL cards are my passion.

After 40 years of sniffing out the finest(Im a centering freak) cards for my 1970 to 1979 Topps Football run Ive gotten to the point where I still have a want list, but just can't find better cards to upgrade.

In addition to my 1969 to 1989 Topps football run I also work on a 1957 Topps Football Set, as well as a 1955 Topps AA SGC Set.

I hope to see more action in the Football area here. A few favorites from my collection.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Great suggestion. So how does one make the forum more football friendly?

A lobotomy and some tight pants?

I kid my knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing friends...

Seriously, all sports cards have investment potential if you get in at the right price. What is missing for the non-baseball sports is liquidity. Fewer collectors = tougher to liquidate at the best prices.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by BigRedOne

Hey all!

This is my first post here. Ive been a long term member of both the PSA(recently banned) and the SGC boards.

While I have some oddball cards from all sports as well as non-sport issues, FOOTBALL cards are my passion.

After 40 years of sniffing out the finest(Im a centering freak) cards for my 1970 to 1979 Topps Football run Ive gotten to the point where I still have a want list, but just can't find better cards to upgrade.

In addition to my 1969 to 1989 Topps football run I also work on a 1957 Topps Football Set, as well as a 1955 Topps AA SGC Set.

I hope to see more action in the Football area here. A few favorites from my collection.

Welcome to Net54! Glad to hear another football card collector has joined our ranks.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

A lobotomy and some tight pants?

I kid my knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing friends...

Seriously, all sports cards have investment potential if you get in at the right price. What is missing for the non-baseball sports is liquidity. Fewer collectors = tougher to liquidate at the best prices.

Recent auction results for football cards have been very strong so either these few collectors are spending some serious cash or more and more collectors are moving into football. It's probably a combination of both but I believe the latter is drive prices up substantially.

jeff

[BigRedOne]

First off, Cards have never been an "investment" for me. They are purely nostalgic entertainment to me. While I know you have to play the "money" game from time to time to help support one's collecting habits, I don't believe Ive ever bought a card with the sole purpose of trying to sell it for a profit.

I just love the cards for the nostalgic hisory of the game and the joy they bring me when I look through my sets.

While I know we all like to feel our cards hold some monetary value, It wouldn't bother me the least if the bottom fell out of the card market and they held no value other than the sentimental value they had just as when you was a kid.

I know it won't ever happen but it was a much better hobby before all the
"whats it worth" and "Priceguide" collectors got involved for no other reason than to try and make profits.

Now for some cards!