Hall of Fame Announces "Old Timers" Ballot

[basesareempty]

Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by dealme

I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.

I think that what most people don't realize is that while the Hall of Fame is a national institution, it is run by local people. Cooperstown is mostly small businesses that make all their money in about four months of the year. Induction is a very big deal to the locals. A year without a player being inducted is bad for the local economy. So while there have been years without inductions, I think the rules have been changed to make that less likely.

[scotgreb]

Larry - I don't believe it has been announced yet . . .

The Today’s Game Era ballot was determined this fall by the Historical Overview Committee, comprised of 11 veteran historians: Bob Elliott (Toronto Sun); Jim Henneman (formerly Baltimore Sun); Rick Hummel (St. Louis Post-Dispatch); Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau); Bill Madden (formerly New York Daily News); Jack O’Connell (BBWAA); Jim Reeves (formerly Fort Worth Star-Telegram); Tracy Ringolsby (MLB.com); Glenn Schwarz (formerly San Francisco Chronicle); Dave van Dyck (Chicago Tribune); and Mark Whicker (Los Angeles News Group).

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era ballot will be announced later this fall. The Today’s Game Era electorate will meet to discuss and review the candidacies of the 10 finalists as part of Baseball’s Winter Meetings, Dec. 4-5 in the Washington, D.C. area.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by basesareempty

Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.

I disagree. Baines, as good a player as he was, was just good peaking at very good. He played a long time and his career numbers are inflated, but do not point to any particular peak period during which he was considered elite.

I'm not a big advocate of Edgar either, but he is a noticeable step up from Baines.


-

IMO

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

What an underwhelming group. Who picks these?

Bud Selig.

Originally Posted by packs

Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.

There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

[ASpaceman]

Belle & Schuerholz.

Belle is criminally underrated.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

One flaw in your analogy is that my wife knew what was going on, the neighbors knew, the grandparents knew, and the CHILDREN knew it was wrong. And in the end, nobody got punished!

[earlywynnfan]

Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.

This.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Bud Selig.


There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

You don't see a correlation between building huge overpriced stadiums and overpriced ticket prices since the building of those stadiums? We're not talking about inflation.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.

Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

[glchen]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

David Justice

[GasHouseGang]

I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

I have NEVER heard anybody refer to baseball owners and leadership as "heroes" for "cleaning up baseball." Every person I've heard of who had half a brain and a smidge of baseball knowledge feels the whole thing was botched from the beginning and more "CYA" than actually caring about the sport or players' health. And yes, I include Bud in that.

As for "100% of the blame," I agree that that may be true from some angles, and I stated in the beginning I feel that blame should be spread out among the rulers, players, media, and fans. However, I adamantly believe that I lay the majority of the blame for steroid use on the heads of the players who took the steroids.

How about a more direct analogy: for several years, your government, at the behest of the banking industry, relaxed regulations to the point of there seemingly not being any. Lo and behold, the financial geniuses do all kinds of shady, crummy deals and what happens? The biggest recession in 80 years. Many people blamed the banks and investment companies (many of us are still hoping some heads will roll,) but nobody condemns the government for their role. Why???

[triwak]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

+1

[Eric72]

Personally, I hope McGwire makes it into the HOF. I know there are those who would keep him out because of PEDs, and I respect that. However, he helped to bring baseball back during the late 1990s and did so in dramatic fashion.

I realize there was an entire generation of players that (more often than not) broke the rules. I'm just not as willing to keep all of them out of the hall as others.

[packs]

McGwire was not a great player. He had great seasons while he was cheating. He had no discernible natural level of talent to look at (like say Bonds did) because he is known to have cheated basically since he entered the league. He is not a HOFer.

[clydepepper]

McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie and I believe those were legit.

He had a great swing, but not the 16-inch forearms that were such red flag later on.

He was, however, very much a 'one-trick pony' as apposed to a five-tool player and the obvious years where he did cheat constitute the only portion of his career that compares favorably to that first year.
-

[packs]

Well let's not forget who was on that team his first season: Jose Canseco.

[dealme]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I think that what most people don't realize is that while the Hall of Fame is a national institution, it is run by local people. Cooperstown is mostly small businesses that make all their money in about four months of the year. Induction is a very big deal to the locals. A year without a player being inducted is bad for the local economy. So while there have been years without inductions, I think the rules have been changed to make that less likely.

This is certainly an angle I hadn't really considered in my first post. The handful of times I've been to Cooperstown were not during induction weekend, and probably would be considered "off" times (although they were during the baseball season). I didn't think about economic impact. It would be interesting to look at sales numbers for induction years versus years without an induction. All of that being said, it seems that if people are being inducted during a given year because an induction is good for the local economy, then it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog.

Cheers,
Mark

[rats60]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie and I believe those were legit.

He had a great swing, but not the 16-inch forearms that were such red flag later on.

He was, however, very much a 'one-trick pony' as apposed to a five-tool player and the obvious years where he did cheat constitute the only portion of his career that compares favorably to that first year.
-

I believe McGwire was on steroids when he was at USC when he led the nation and set the school record with 32 HR his last year there. 49 HRs as a rookie was as much out of place as his 70 HRs in 1998. Unlike Bonds who was skinny with the Pirates, McGwire was always big.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rats60

I believe McGwire was on steroids when he was at USC when he led the nation and set the school record with 32 HR his last year there. 49 HRs as a rookie was as much out of place as his 70 HRs in 1998. Unlike Bonds who was skinny with the Pirates, McGwire was always big.

There will always be asterisks around certain records.

[esd10]

Most of these players and executives have no place in the hof let alone on the ballot where the immortals of Americas past time are inshrined.

[packs]

I still don't understand how the HOF could put someone like Yawkey in and then Steinbrenner is met with criticism of his personality.

[ejharrington]

McGuire needs to be in. He is a legend.

[Louieman]

I think it's reasonable to say that not everyone who is currently in the hall of fame deserved it by the standards we have for hall of famers today. But instead of punishing them, I think we should just keep that standard from this point forward and not use past mistakes or past judgments of hall of famers as a litmus test for today's players