Alterations - Same subject different thread (by accident)

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Posted By: T206Collector

I hope Kevin agrees to allow Jim to write the foreword.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Going beyond the issue of alteration, something this Board has discussed numerous times in various threads, what I fear perhaps even more is out and out counterfeiting, which I think we would be naive to feel can/will not happen. This is something I have discussed since the mid-80s, when card prices were considerably lower. I don't think it bears mentioning that 20+ years later, with card prices astronomically higher, the threat is greater.

Why am I so concerned about this? The history of the human race tells us that where there is an economic incentive to make a dishonest buck, somebody out there will try to do it. I have no doubt that while I am writing this post somebody is thinking how to make fake plates, use papers and inks that will pass forensic scrutiny, and produce counterfeit T206s that will look (even down to the microscopic dot matrix pattern) as good as the real ones. With gem mint commons going for $10k and HOFers for potentially 6 figures, the economic incentive is certainly there. Or what about cards where excellent condition will fetch well into six figures? A counterfeiter need not produce 9s and 10s to make a killing.

So what do we do about this? In my view we start with awareness. Second, since undoubtedly a counterfeiter, if going to the trouble to counterfeit the cards, would also take the trouble to counterfeit grading company holders to insert the cards into, grading companies should keep good records of the serial numbers on their holders and be willing to confirm to potential purchasers that the serial number in fact matches the player, issue and condition of the card. Third, we should place extra importance on provenance. Just being able to document that a particular card was in somebody's collection, say, in 1980 would be of tremendous comfort since the risk of counterfeiting was presumably less then.

By making this post I wish to stress that I'm not a doomsayer predicating the collapse of the hobby. I love collecting and in no way feel this threat means all are cards about to become worthless, or indeed will suffer any depreciation in value. I just don't want people to become complacent that a skilled counterfeiter cannot produce cards that as a practical matter could pass muster with even the most skilled experts.

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Posted By: John

Dave,

I hope were both wrong, I hope this wasn’t some elaborate marketing ploy to pimp a future book. We get pissed at people who promote auctions on the main forum as well as business’s I would feel a book would be no exception.

Like I said I hope this is not the case.

Crandell are you Kevin’s publicity agent? If not then how about sitting on your hands and letting Kevin type his own answers and responses?

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Posted By: only_child

"I’m more just wondering if this is ever going to develop beyond what’s currently transpiring?? Perhaps into something truly educational for us all?"


Actually #’s 1 and 2 are very close. The subject of card alterations is very broad and covers a lot of territory. I find it exhausting to write posts all day, besides I have a family, a job, some medical issues, a Titanic collection business (shameless plug TitanicItems.com), and examine and/or experiment with cards almost every day.

John your questions are great and very valid. It’s just tough to respond so quickly with so much info. Also more informed posts lead to more questions. I’m trying my best! They will come. I also need to be very careful, it freaks me out that some punk will view this information as inspirational and use it as a stepping stone.

Writing a book on this subject is not as easy as it sounds, plus I consider myself the village idiot and no writer. I will go into details and give plenty of pics on what to look for. I want to keep it like a pocket guide so that collectors can bring it with them to shows and stores. I’m hoping for under 100 pages. Damn, the first 20 pages is on trimming alone though. I'm debating about even finishing it or writing it at all.
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“what if it really is possible to trim a card in such a way that it's impossible to determine when it was done?”

Hate to bum you out but it can be done. Matter of fact, I just did it the other day in front of a grader to show him how it’s done. I call it untrimming or undoctoring (doctoring a doctored card). It’s a trick (dare I call it a skill?) all to itself in alterations.

_________

"even Kevin agrees that PSA "ignores the subject" while SGC "doesn't need much assistance at the moment." If you would just have all of your cards reviewed by SGC, you could ferret out many of those alterations."

No comment but that really was not what was implied.

_________

"Mike is not only the best grader in the hobby but he is open and willing to learn....and Kevin has plenty to teach--may have some further observations after I speak with Dr. Kevin(as he calls himself)"

I consider Mike a good friend and has a wealth of information he shares freely. Sure, I show him all the techniques but in reality I learn from him. Others may not agree but I feel he one most "trusted professionals" in the hobby.

Not sure if I ever called myself Dr. Kevin, although I have been called "doc" but only because I was a firefighter/paramedic.

___________

"Why give it away for free when you can float it out there on this forum and get an idea of how much $$ can be made by writing a book about the subject."

You're thinking with your wallet LOL. Let's be realistic. If I crossed over to the dark side, I could make more money from doctoring just a few cards....hell, one card.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wonka,

I will do what I want--how about shutting up for once.

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Posted By: Mark

Now one can't even post on n54 without risk of becoming a photoshop victim. What a joke.

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Posted By: Bob

Way, way up on this thread Leon asked a question and posed an opinion which I agree totally with. I have a hard time believing card doctors bother with making a gd/vg card vg when they could take an ex card and turn it in to a nrmt card. The return on investment is much, much greater on the higher graded cards. Kevin, when you mention 15% of slabbed cards are altered, I don't doubt your estimate but I believe the great majority of these altered cards are in the exmt to nrmt grades, that's where the real money is.

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Posted By: John

”I will do what I want--how about shutting up for once.”

Ooohhhhhhh, uh oh does this mean we fight on the playground after school Jim? Or are you more of the type to take your ball and go home???

“Now one can't even post on n54 without risk of becoming a photoshop victim. What a joke.”

Marcus you’re absolutely right! I will write a formal letter of apology to Rowan Atkinson today. I’m sure he doesn’t want to be associated with Crandell either. Good point Marcus thanks.

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Posted By: Joann

Rowan Atkinson! That's who it is. It was driving me crazy.

J

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Posted By: only_child

From the other thread:

<"15% of all slabbed cards are altered?

Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin."

You're right, me neither. Let me restate; 15% of vintage cards that I have inspected (which is quite a few). Wouldn't make much sense considering all the cards from, let say, 1975 on up that are in slabs.>

True - most of the cards I look at are ex-nrmt/mt. There are high-value exceptions though.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I might be, but Kevin you have definitely peaked my interest. Frankly, I've been interested in this subject since I saw my first fake T206 proof that was supposedly done by using a hardware store deck cleaning product....that Oaxacilic acid or whatever it's called just wiped away the ink like nothing on that card. Had I not been told it was a phoney I would have believed it to be a blank back T206.
I imagine that writing a conventional style book would not be profitable for you , and would probably take too much time. Maybe a series of internet articles or perhaps a cd-rom with some of your findings and experiments , etc... might be the way to go. I'd pay you for something like that, and I only vaguely know of your reputation.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wonka,

Peter Chao made an excellent point--stop arguing.

I have no reason in the world to ever speak to you. Why don't you do the same. All I am doing is responding to your childish taunts. Noone exzcept you and a couple of like-minded posters likes all the bickering. You want to continue to attack me I will defend myself but I think all but a handful would agree the board would be a better place without all the fighting.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes Jim- the board would be a better place without all this fighting...and funny thing, every time there is a fight you seem to be in the middle of it. I know you claim you are just defending yourself but nonetheless a day doesn't go by that you are not in the middle of a fight. And I am getting tired of it,and I think if it continues I will be taking a break from the board (that's not a news flash, just a passing thought).

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Posted By: Bob

Barry- although I have done the same thing before (vacation from the board), I would really miss your posts. Maybe you could just skip over the threads that you find inane or annoying and just read and answer the others.
tbob

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Posted By: leon

I posted the new thread about halting the personal attacks...that is the timeline "line in the sand"....check the time stamp on it. Personal attacks and so forth after that will magically disappear.....the time has come.....sorry it had to be this way but I too have had enough....(actually I could have let it go but a large number of members want it stopped so, so be it)....regards

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Posted By: only_child

Frankly, I've been interested in this subject since I saw my first fake T206 proof.

You probably didn't miss the T206 blanks shown?

The "Toront" and "Shappe" made errors I consider my best work. Not easy to do but completely undectible.

OK..now I'm bragging LOL!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- thanks for the support, and with Leon's new edict, perhaps we will return to a little civility. I really do enjoy reading and posting and I don't want to leave, but sometimes I do reach my saturation point. Thanks again

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Posted By: Chad

They got especially bad in the Lipset thread. But what, exactly, constitutes an attack. Because let's face it, some people come onto the Board stomping on toes left and right and, for whatever cognitive reason, have no idea that they're doing it. I say we take the New Yorker approach and just pretend the crazies aren't around. Don't make eye contact, people!

By the way, this stuff about altering and forging is exactly the kind of good info that makes this site quality stuff.

--Chad

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you Leon--whew! Great News!

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Posted By: Bob

Say what you want about John (wonka) but when I got jumped on a few years ago and left the board for a while, John wrote a really nice email to me and made me feel a lot better about things with his advice about ignoring the jerks of the world. I consider him to not only be a friend and good guy but someone who can be informative in his posts and someone who can make sure that people don't get too full of themselves.

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Posted By: Chad

Love the photoshop stuff and am always glad when he chimes in on a thread.

--Chad

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Posted By: John

Thanks Bob, but I’m still going to have to bid against you on Obaks and PCL stuff.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John's a decent guy and very funny. His posts are always appreciated either for their humor or information. He is not a problem here. In fact, John, would you like to fly to NYC for the NYC Dinner Thread Dinner II? You and Ted Z would be the honorary guests...

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

In my opinion alteration occurs across the spectrum and is not limited to higher grade cards. To be sure, the reward is higher on a per card basis at the higher end, but this is offset I believe by the fact that there are many more cards available in lower grades, plus the fact that it is probably easier to improve a lower grade card than a higher end one, so in the end it balances out.