T215 Pirates group in Mastro Live Auction

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Posted By: leon

I have no issue with 90'ish of these turning up at once. I think there will be many more "finds" like this in the coming years. Maybe not T215's (or maybe so) but there will be more.... I couldn't believe it when I turned up the Western Playground set....but it happened. My question is where did the designation for these come from? I just checked the ACC and the Sports Collectors Bible. It didn't come from them? best regards

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Curious -- I was surprised that Mastro is offering these cards in one lot due to their extreme individual value. In short, how many people can pay a few hundred grand for the lot? These cards are incredibly rare - wouldn't Mastro have made out much better offering them individually?

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Posted By: leon

For reasons I just explained in my email I don't think so....After the first 10-20 (or maybe a few more) a lot of type collectors would be set. Then the set collectors would have no hope of completing the set.....I think there will be a handful of folks going into the higher territory. I won't be one of them..

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

But this is the ultimate 'back' -- rarer than a Drum back by far, no? Even non-type card collectors would want one of these due to scarcity, no?

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Posted By: leon

A lot of folks don't collect backs...especially old time collectors. I have seen a few collections that had all E92's lumped together...regardless of back....It's hard to say which would have realized more but obviously Mastro thought the whole group together will....

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Still waiting for Kevin to explain his accusations? I wonder if putting a smiley face at the end of the confratative claim absolves him of any responsibilty from being truthful?

CB

edited for peaceful communication

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the only logical way to sell them is in a group, especially since it is a near set. They are going to get several heavy hitters going head to head, the group will sell for a fortune, and then disappear for the foreseeable future.

If you break them into smaller groups fifty different people will own anywhere from one to several and every year a dozen of them will reappear for sale and the mystique will be gone. They will become another one of those sets where the cards are rare, but if you miss one you will always have another chance.

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Posted By: Alan

It will be very exciting for those physically there at the live auction to see what happens.

Leon - Are you going ?

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Posted By: leon

I will be at the live auction and I am sure quite a few board members and Net54 dinner attendees will be there too. I sent a donation for cancer research a few days ago. It's a great cause and I am happy to donate and go have fun with the Mastro folks....They are a great bunch...

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Still waiting for Kevin to explain his accusations?"



I’m not accusing anyone of anything. Just trying to get a better understanding of the big picture from information gathered. I believe everything was already explained to me. Wow, talk about trying to make something out of nothing...are you nuts?

Answers to all of the questions - I don’t have a clue.

I do know if any were hand cut, I personally would stay away from them.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I have seen a few that were trimmed, that is not handcut, at least to me. The reason you see them trimmed is that most of the originals I have seen show varying degrees of tilt cut on the top and bottom border, the Mastro lot appears to have this same characteristic. FYI the lot/collection did come from outside the US. For the record I do have an untampered one.





If you'll notice it is has a tilt cut and displays the same characteristics of the Mastro cards, although it came from a very well know collector/dealer years ago from his personal type collection.

Scott

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Posted By: mr. moses

that in 1995 or 1996 Martin Murray (or his partner) suggested to me either ownership or first hand knowledge of 90 sumptin Pirate cards. As it was an overseas issue and available within a more sophisticated English market - it is not unreasonable to assume that a dedicated collector and large dealer - could accumulate that many. It is unusual though that given the extremely low population figures and no more than a handfull of duplicates known to date - that one could have that many rare cards all different without some possible suggestion they were obtained contemporaneous to their original issueance. If they came in packs of smokes distributed to servicemen perhaps a soldier went around collecting them. Maybe one person smoked all the packs. The implied condition suggests other plausible explanations as I assume when you are at war there wasn't much time for top-loaders. Of course maybe it was the supply Sergeant who never left the comfort of an office.... The truth is I'm not even sure the cards were ever actually distributed. I'm not looking for ghosts or scandals where there are none. I just am UNAWARE of literature relating to the card's distribution or other confirmation such as company literature - witnessed opening of a vintage pack with a card in it and the like. If the cards were never actually distributed might that not allow for such a grouping? Other things have survived just because an artist or printer might have liked them. Is it an accepted fact that they were distributed? I have no doubt they are real (yes I know - they're real and they're spectacular) yet there is quite a mystique surrounding them as with all obscure issues. Can anyone add something substantive about the issue?

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Posted By: sagard

"I do know if any were hand cut, I personally would stay away from them."

Is this due to re-backing concerns or simply personal preference?

Aren't T215 Red Cross scarce enough and valueable enough to have it be freakin' crazy to skin them?

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Posted By: Cobby33

"In the absence of evidence to the contrary, always assume the best."

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Is this due to re-backing concerns or simply personal preference?

Aren't T215 Red Cross scarce enough and valueable enough to have it be freakin' crazy to skin them?"



For the money these type of cards go for I would be very concerned with rebacking issues if they were hand cut or trimmed.

You don't need a T215 Red Cross card, a T206 will do just fine.


Kevin

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Posted By: Cobby33

Did I miss the memo that the New World Order is in charge now?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think folks do think more of cards they have, and less of cards they don't have. But the Ty Cobb w/ Ty Cobb back has an additional factor... seems to me they really aren't T206s, but folks that own them want them to be, many of those owners bought the card with the expectation that it was in the white border set. So I well understand what Barry was thinking.

As for the Pirate cards, I'd have liked to see them auctioned in 2 or 3 bunches, not one lot nor individually. I think 2 or 3 bunches maximizes the sale price. A few guys wanting a type card could band together easier... A deep pocketed bidder could still tackle the lots, he'd only have to win 2 or 3 to clean the table.

We'd all be hurting if there'd only been flat-topped houses at the turn of the century, no attic for Grandpa to stash his cards. The attic idea reminds me of the bourbon warehouses here in Kentucky... the barrels have to set in there for a few years before the product is ready. Makers Mark moves their barrels around, up and down, toward the inside and back to the outer walls, so their product gets, in their estimation, a better aging process. Maybe I should buy some reprints and flour paste them to some whiskey barrels, then "harvest" them in a few years...

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Posted By: Cobby33

I would guess close to $750K. If not, it's only because anything over $250K is ridiculously-high and even if the lot contained 1,000 of them, it wouldn't go much higher.

The last couple (and only recent) examples (in "A" condition) have sold between $6K-$10K. Even using the lower figure, that equates to about $600K.

This is why IMO, it's foolish to sell them as one huge lot. Someone told me they should auciton them off both as a lot and individually and the highest net should dictate which format wins. I think that makes a lot of sense.

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Posted By: Paul

I believe Steve Verkman recently sold a trimmed (but otherwise nice) one for about $9500.

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Posted By: Cobby33

It's also very possible that PSA misinterpreted the unique size of the Pirates and incorrectly graded it as trimmed.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think the days of $9500 for a trimmed one in a Clean Sweep Auction are over considering the recent influx of these 90 or so examples, right?

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Posted By: Cobby33

Not if they're sold as one lot. That's the same as having no influx of new examples in the marketplace.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No, I'm referring to the price of the individuals if they're broken out after the auction.

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Posted By: Cobby33

In that case, then most likely- though you probably won't find any for a bargain. But don't the people who drop $600K on lots usually keep them as a set (or near set)?

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Posted By: Cat

All 83 lots are on the Mastro Website. They estimate the value at $300,000 to $400,000 for the Pirates with an opening bid of $150,000. Many of their estimates look conservative and a few seem accurate.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Good call. What's next? Credit and asset checks?