Post a Stupid Question - Prewar 101

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards.

Prewar 1-100 is learned at HKU!! ... (Hard Knocks University)

My best amateur move (not really a question) might be when I bought an E97 black and White, Irv Young from Terry K, some 16? yrs ago. When told it was Irv, after I bought it, I slyly played like I knew all along.

.

[DeanH3]

T205 question...I haven't handled many, but is it more common to find them with nice sparkly gold borders? Or with a more dull (oxidized) look? Thanks in advance.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

Frank,


I have a question about T201. The cards were printed at two locations, factory 30 and 649. Which location represents a scarcer card, and why doesn't anyone collect by factory location on these cards like we see on T205, T206, T207?

They were printed in one location, I believe American Lithographic Company in NY, and were distributed from two different cigarette packing plants.

I don't know if any are tougher from one location or another.
But I think that might be the case as the plants served different distribution areas. So the player mix may have varied.

I collect most things to include factory differences. I just haven't done a whole lot with T201s yet.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egri

My question: every time I read about detecting forged baseball cards, there is always something about how modern printing techniques and equipment are different from back then, and knowing those differences can help spot fakes. But other than money, what prevents a forger from buying a printing press from the 1950s, and inks and cardboard from around then, and cranking out a few sheets of 1952 Topps #311s? It seems to me that the knowledge is out there, the equipment and materials are out there, really the only thing that is missing is someone who can tie the two together.

Certainly the old technology exists, there was very little difference between the stuff I was around in 79-81 and what was done in the 50's (As far as lithography goes other processes will be harder or easier depending on how important the equipment was to the process and final product. typography from maybe 1700's on? pretty easy to get, Rotogravure as done for newspaper supplements in the 30's? Not at all easy)

As has been mentioned already, finding the exact materials would be a real challenge. Although for 52 Mantle or T206 Wagner money I'm sure someone could give it a really good try.

The difficulty is in producing the color separations and halftones EXACTLY like the originals. Many of the better fakes of cards that have circulated since the 80's are fairly easy to detect since the solid areas especially black borders etc are not solid but screened.

I believe that with an original, it might be possible. But would require a lot of knowledge in several different related but different fields. You'd have to know paper very well to get an excellent match. But to get an exact match might require ordering it to those specs from a paper mill that could do it. Then you'd need to get the inks "right", and while it's not difficult to get close, getting it really close might be hard. The plates for each color would be very difficult to reproduce exactly.


To put it in some perspective.
Leaf or their printer couldn't get the colors or the plates for the solid colors the same at all and they were the manufacturer.
In the junk wax era multiple plants were used, and the huge array of varieties is because they all did things slightly differently. 88 Score are screened differently on the same card, either because they made new masks (The negatives the plates are made from) for later print runs, or sent the original art to at least two different plants.


If the manufacturers can't make exact duplicates of their own stuff...........

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Okay sorry if this crosses the streams on pre/post war...

If as in my estimates T206 was darn close to one of the highest produced sets in card history, but because of barkeeps just sweeping hundreds of them into the trash each night made scarcer by survival in theory. In 100 years does someone see junk wax held in the same regard because it is basically dumped by the ton daily? Really...who is holding junk commons?

I won't be alive to see the day, but it is something I have thought of.

There are or were likely dealers that ordered more junk wax than the entire production run of T206s. Not that there weren't an awful lot of T206s made.

Even the junk stuff that was fringe sets like Signature rookies or Front Row probably produced more for one set than were made for the tougher backs. SR was usually around 45000 base sets, 1% survival would be 450 cards!

I used to save junk wax commons, then had kids and needed the space more.
There is some "junk" that's not as common as everyone thinks it is.

Steve B

[HercDriver]

OK, here's my question for Frank and Co:

Burdick named T206s, but I believe he did it wrong. I think there should be multiple sets, called 1909-1911 Sovereign, 1909-1911 Old Mill, 1909-1911 Tolstoi, etc. They should each be their own set.

So I guess my question is, for you believers in lumping them all together into one T206 set...does your 1978 Topps binder have OPC and Burger King cards in it? It should by that logic...

And I already know the first response will be that you don't collect 1978 cards... so that response is disallowed. I am looking for somebody to explain their logic to me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

T205 question...I haven't handled many, but is it more common to find them with nice sparkly gold borders? Or with a more dull (oxidized) look? Thanks in advance.

definitely a variety but more tend towards dull, for obvious reasons. It's always a treat to find a sparkler!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Geno: I believe all those companies were owned by one tobacco giant, whereas Topps certainly didn't own Burger King or Zest or in later years Drake's Cakes or Coca Cola.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

definitely a variety but more tend towards dull, for obvious reasons. It's always a treat to find a sparkler!

The Young I recently picked up has a nice sparkly border compared the the one I already had and it does make a huge difference. Thanks for the response. Much appreciated .

[Kzoo]

Here's my t206 question I've been thinking about for awhile..... When t206's were printed on sheets, was the entire reverse side of the sheet all one tobacco brand, or where they mixed up with Piedmonts next to Polar Bears and Sweet Caps? ......or has anybody ever seen a severe miscut back with 2 different brands showing?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

here's my dumb question, how do you guys add signatures to your posts? I assume you don't type it all in every time and I want to recognize my trading partners who sold me some great cards like a lot of you do.

As a way of redeeming this post: kzoo, it would be massively inefficient to print multiple backs on a sheet, plus it wouldn't make any sense with the different factory numbers. So while I don't have any proof I have never seen a miscut with two different backs and print shop logic would argue against the possibility.

[egri]

Click on User CP, then in the menu on the left, under Settings & Options, click Edit Signature.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

muchas gracias!

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Before our involvement in WW II started what were pre war cards called?

"Modern shiny stuff"

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

OK, here's my question for Frank and Co:

Burdick named T206s, but I believe he did it wrong. I think there should be multiple sets, called 1909-1911 Sovereign, 1909-1911 Old Mill, 1909-1911 Tolstoi, etc. They should each be their own set.

So I guess my question is, for you believers in lumping them all together into one T206 set...does your 1978 Topps binder have OPC and Burger King cards in it? It should by that logic...

And I already know the first response will be that you don't collect 1978 cards... so that response is disallowed. I am looking for somebody to explain their logic to me.

I think the article in another thread where the writer mentioned back collecting but said the goal should be a mounted set of all the different fronts pretty much outlines the early thinking and some of the current thinking.

Personally I'd put them as individual sets but under the same major heading like some of the other sets, so T206-1, T206-2 etc. I just kNOW that would be really popular

As far as the 78s go
1) You forgot the Zest soap set
2)And the mail in team card sheet
3) Here's the sort of binder you'd need
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Casite-Autom...EAAOSwrURXPgDx

And even that uses what are really three smaller binders........



Steve B

[V117collector]

...Can you soak 1933 (R319) Goudey's to remove paper?

[CardboardCollector]

So PSA and SGC are TPG (Third Party Graders), what happened to first and second party graders?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by CardboardCollector

So PSA and SGC are TPG (Third Party Graders), what happened to first and second party graders?

TPGs are so noted because they are a disinterested third party with the first two parties being the party of the first part, the seller, and the party of the second part, the buyer.

[DHogan]

This is a great topic. Thank you for starting it Frank. I was always worried about asking questions on the forum. I didn't want to look like a fool. By asking silly questions.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

Here's my t206 question I've been thinking about for awhile..... When t206's were printed on sheets, was the entire reverse side of the sheet all one tobacco brand, or where they mixed up with Piedmonts next to Polar Bears and Sweet Caps? ......or has anybody ever seen a severe miscut back with 2 different brands showing?

Each sheet had a single brand and factory on the reverse.

As for the earlier question about American Beauty, nobody has presented a convincing argument (at least in my mind) why they were cut thinner.

But as an aside, it dawned on me recently that the AB 350 frame was removed, resulting in the AB "no frame" cards, after ALC printers noticed that so many of the AB 350 frame cards (which were cut thinner) were miscut (so that the frame was truncated). Cause and effect.

Edited to add: Thanks Frank. One of the better threads lately.

[Yoda]

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

Larry Doby

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Larry Doby

You only get 50% credit. You didn't answer the whole question,

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Yoda

You only get 50% credit. You didn't answer the whole question,

Oh, sorry. Cleveland Indians.

[Beatles Guy]

Are there any surviving Cracker Jack boxes with the card still in them? Hell, are there any Cracker Jack boxes that still exist that would have had a card in them?

[BicycleSpokes]

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by V117collector

...Can you soak 1933 (R319) Goudey's to remove paper?

I have not soaked 1933 Goudey's, but I do not believe there should be any issue in doing so (depending upon the glue used), nor do I remember anyone on here mentioning having issues with soaking this issue.

Brian

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

Well Since Jackie played in the National League he obviously wasn't the answer. I submit that it was Moses Fleetwood Walker for the Toledo Blue Stockings in 1884.

[edjs]

Why are E97 Briggs Black and White called "proofs?"

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby lived about a mile from me. Same town as Yogi. I heard if you just rang Larrys doorbell he'd come down and sign stuff. Kicking myself I never met the man. Important and badly overlooked.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BicycleSpokes

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

goose goosage perhaps....or love of the 1954 Topps because who likes mantle

[1952boyntoncollector]

I dont recall there being 'rookie cards' for T206? Are there any HOF T206 'rookie' cards?

[BicycleSpokes]

Could bring wrong, but I believe the T206 Tris Speaker is his rookie.

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[pherbener]

Why aren't the 150 series T206 worth more since they are older than the 350 and the 350 more than the 350-460?? It seems like in almost every other case, all else being equal the older cards are more expensive(33 vs. 34 Goudey Gehrig...)

[dougscats]

According to Phil Garry's list
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603
there are three:

Marquard, hands at side,
Frank Baker,
and Zach Wheat.

I take Phil's list to be the authority regarding h-o-f rookie cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BicycleSpokes

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

Not a stupid question. Our old hosting company was Network54.com so the name of our forum "became that" before we did a complete host and s/w update. We kept the "Net54" in the url address because of name recognition. If you click the non sport icon in the far upper right corner of the board you will be taken to the non sports board and that companies hosting site.

[BBB]

How were exhibit cards circulated?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snapolit1]

Everything you need to know about Exhibits:

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/int...ngexhibitcards

[frankbmd]

Who holds the patent for the "bobbler", the mechanism that makes bobble heads bobble and not wobble?

[Tom S.]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Who holds the patent for the "bobbler", the mechanism that makes bobble heads bobble and not wobble?

I think the guy's name was Robert Bler.

[BBB]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Everything you need to know about Exhibits:



http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/int...ngexhibitcards

Succinct and interesting read. Thank you!

[Billy5858]

REALLY dumb Question. Why are T206 Minors worth SMR wise even less than Commons.........Duh because they are Minors???.....Oh wait T205's Minors are worth More than the Commons...........

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Billy5858

REALLY dumb Question. Why are T206 Minors worth SMR wise even less than Commons.........Duh because they are Minors???.....Oh wait T205's Minors are worth More than the Commons...........

The T205 minors are a bit tougher than the regular commons, plus they're popular - I think because it's a nice small subset with no really expensive cards.

T206 minor leaguers are pretty much just as common as normal commons, except for the Southern leaguers. At one time, they had higher book values than normal commons, again probably a popularity thing as there's a few subsets by league and team, and only a couple HOFers none of them particularly expensive. Some of them I think are marginally tougher than normal commons.

Steve B

[GoCubsGo32]

Stupid question. T206 set. It says it ran from 1909-1911. Did they just print the same cards from 1909-1911? Did they have different set series each year?

[Tennis13]

There used to be this guy named Orv in Belleair, Fl when I was growing up. I was a Jack's Baseball Shop of Clearwater guy, but Orv had a big following with my Largo buddies. Anyway, Orv was in the newspaper and claimed to have an unopened tobacco can that came from the Honus Wagner T206 time. What ever happened to that can? Was it legit? We are talking like 1996 or 1997-ish on that story. My hunch is Orv was a semi-big player in the industry back then and I would be shocked if some of you didn't know him and the story.

[Snapolit1]

Why hasn't someone taken Burdick's classification system and attempted to modernize and improve it?

[Yoda]

What was the name of Ty Cobb's first organized team and in what league did they play?

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by GoCubsGo32

Stupid question. T206 set. It says it ran from 1909-1911. Did they just print the same cards from 1909-1911? Did they have different set series each year?

The T206 set print run was from 1909-1911. To compare it to a modern version without going into a lot of detail, it would look like this.

1909 - Series one - known as the "150" series
1910 - Series two - known as the "350" series
1911 - Series three - known as the "350-460" or to some collectors, the "460" series

Not all the same T206s were printed from series to series. Some players did carry over into other series, while new versions of a player's cards were added into the next year's series. This is why some players have multiple cards (portrait or action version) in the three year print run. Other players were cut from production altogether after the first year.

[Yoda]

Who was best man at John McGraw's wedding?

[frankbmd]

How many women have married more than one Heisman Trophy winner?