Is the Grading System Broken?

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Posted By: JimB

I was correct in predicting a 200+ post thread way back when.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I confess I only saw two, but one was in 1969- does that count extra?

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Has a good shot, as this is post #199 unless someone beats me to the punch. OK, while I was typing this we got to 200.

A few observations:

1) Please keep political chatter out of this realm. There are plenty of good boards to argue politics on. Ann Coulter makes interesting reading and is IMHO very pretty. Beyond that I will not comment on her. Mike Moore makes interesting films, I think Sicko is going to turn to be a film discussed quite a bit and it is very topical as both the Republicans and Democrats agree that the American Health Care System is goofed up. They have differences in how to correct the system, but they all realize it needs to be fixed.

2) Everyone has some valid points in this morass

A) Jim is correct to the point where PSA first and then the other grading companies truly helped to keep the vintage hobby going. Especially in these days of less face to face communications (shows, stores) having grading companies that almost always get it correct -- I will never say always because it's still human beings -- gives a buyer a pretty good idea of what he has. If I'm looking to buy a NM 1962 Lou Brock card and I see it's a PSA 7 NQ, SGC 84, BVG 7, or GAI 7 -- I can build a pretty good mental image of that card. As a buyer or seller on the internet I'm far more comfortable with that then with some one else's NM condition.

B) Could the system be improved, of course, and I think we as a hobby and business could use a premium tier. If I have a card which books for some figure -- we'll create an $$ figure; it's worth a lot more to me to get that card graded than a 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr of which PSA has graded 50K plus by themselves. Get that higher tier grading structure, call in other experts if needed on obscure issues, etc.

C) Jim, however, has been called out, and in my opinion rightly so, for his refusal to have his own cards checked. While getting ALL of his cards rechecked is not worth it on many levels, it is worth it for those sets in which he feels uncomfortable to get them looked at. SGC, for example, is I would venture, less than an hour away from him, and in this case, perhaps a negotiated walk through deal either at his home or at the SGC offices might prove interesting. And while the two of them can work out their own rates, a limited test sample would be very interesting to see the resutls. No card would be broken out UNLESS Jim gave his approval to do so.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I like Michael Moore.

I also like grading.

What does that mean?

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you like them both you're a Communist!

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
A show from 1969 counts triple.
JimB



Here are a few Ann Coulter snippets. I am sure fans like Jim Crandall will love to see his view posted here for all to see:



"If you don't hate Bill Clinton and the people who labored to keep him in office, you don't love your country."

"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole."

"In this recurring nightmare of a presidency [the Clinton administration], we have a national debate about whether he 'did it,' even though all sentient people know he did. Otherwise there would be debates only about whether to impeach or assassinate."

"I think we ought to nuke North Korea right now just to give the rest of the world a warning. ... They’re a major threat. I just think it would be fun to nuke them and have it be a warning to the rest of the world."

"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

"There are no good Democrats."

"I take the Biblical idea. God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees God says, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"

"I think, on the basis of the recent Supreme Court ruling that we can't execute the retarded, American journalists commit mass murder without facing the ultimate penalty. I think they are retarded."

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant."

"Even if corners were cut, [Iran-Contra] was a brilliant scheme. There is no possibility that anyone in any Democratic administration would have gone to such lengths to fund anti-Communist forces. When Democrats scheme from the White House, it's to cover up the President's affair with an intern. When Republicans scheme, it's to support embattled anti-Communist freedom fighters sold out by the Democrats."

"[Canadians] better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent."

"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East, and sending liberals to Guantanamo."

"Without affirmative action, Maxine Waters would not have a job that didn't involve wearing a paper hat."

"[Liberals] are always accusing us of repressing their speech. I say let's do it. Let's repress them. ... Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the First Amendment."

"A central component of liberal hate speech is to make paranoid accusations based on their own neurotic impulses, such as calling Republicans angry, hate-filled, and mean."

"I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, but it turns out that you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot,' so I'm -- so, kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards ..."

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I saw them at the Boston Tea Party, on Landsdowne Street right behind the Green Monster, and we used to hear the games going on while we waited on line. They played the Tea Party in both Nov and Dec of '69, and I just can't remember which one I saw.

Gee- did Ann Coulter really say all that? No wonder why I change the channel every time she's on. I'm a liberal and I love our country, I just don't like our leaders.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I just think it's nice that Jim decided to miss church today so he could post to this thread all morning.

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Posted By: JimB

I am actually heading off to the Buddhist Temple for a lecture in a few minutes. It is only 8:30 West Coast.
JimB

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, I saw them at Sandstone in Kansas City about 15 years ago. I was not impressed. The carnival surrounding the show was much more entertaining. It's the only concert I've ever been to where someone tried to sell me drugs.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Al, I think we need to do an intervention for you. Quickly.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Rich,

I agree on the political chatter--you will note however in both cases I resonded to others comments anout Coulter and Olbermann.

What you are saying on the other is not far-fetched. I have already spoken to Dave about it on a hypothetical basis--SGC is 20 minutes from my house and perhaps they would even come here--but it is hypothetical at this point.

Al,

Would you be free this week to install this scanner for me?

Jeff,

I just norticed you were 1 slot ahead of me on the PSA Set Registry for 1955 Topps--great set! I have 20 7s and the rest 8s--some of those "common" psa 8s are very expensive in that year--its a very popular set.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

I also saw them at Madison Square Garden in 1991. It was actually an excellent performance, I was very impressed. The 1969 show is a bit hazy- that's a very long time ago.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, some of the 55 8s have really come down as of late. I'll check the ones you need as some of the prices are half of what they were a year ago.

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Posted By: jay behrens

PSA did not save the hobby. What PSA did is bring lazy people with a lot money into the hobby. Instead of taking the time to learn about the card issues and what to look for in alterations, they instead rely upon a third party system that is obviously flawed and failing at what they claim to do.

The real blame lies with Jim Copeland. If not for his need to own the best example possible and the insane prices he was paying, trimming and doctoring would not be a major issue today. Up until about the mid-80s, the only thing your really had to look for was trimming. All the vintage collectors and dealers I knew back then knew their cards inside and out and didn't need a 3rd party to tell them if a card had been altered. Once Copeland hit the scene, you had to start looking for all sorts of other doctoring and everything went downhill from there.

So send your thanks to Jim Copeland for the current mess.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I gave up tring to buy the last 20 in psa 8 as I kept losing on ebay and it took me less than a week to get them in 7s.

Jay,

I disagree--the whole high end of the hobby was on strike--people stopped buying from Alan Rosen's auctions--Superior's auctions had a large number of no-bids. What finally got collectors back to the hobby was PSA and people like Fogel and Merkel gicing their collecdtions to them. Then the Registry came and vthe hobby took off as collectors had the confidence that what they were buying was not altered.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

You're both right to a point - getting this back on topic - Copeland is in a way responsible for many cards being altered as is PSA. When people see the difference paid for PSA 7's compared to PSA 8's you're going to get a lot of nefarious people altering cards for profit. PSA is much more to blame because of the competition aspect they brought into the hobby which made prices for relatively common cards skyrocket. How does one explain that an SGC 98 1965 NL ERA leaders card that sold for $2500 then sells for $20,000 in a PSA 10 slab?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

His parrot cage is right behind Orlando's chair.

When you hear, "Polly wants a cracker" .. that's not Jim, that's Joe ..... he wants to be fed.

Jim has a more extensive vocabulary.
Words like:
PSA, MARKet, Mint, near mint (last two stem from a show where PSA had a table near Rosen) great economy, a great stock market, slab it, great corners, well centered, cross over, flip it, and maybe 10 more words of the PSA kind.

When it comes to a Parrot, you can't beat a PSA Parrot.

BTW, being that you're talking about political wipeouts.

You're hearing this from a Barry Goldwater voter, that if this were 1964, I would vote for Barry again.

The coming election, is going to be a WIPEOUT of the third kind.
What you witnessed last November, is just a slight surfers wave that is building up into a tsunami.
You have no clue how disgusted the people from both sides of the fence, are with this arrogant administration.
These pretenders to the throne, have set this country back to King George's pre Revolutionary times.
This country, all parties, have experienced the worse setback since Bunker Hill, and Breeds Hill.
The people from both sides of the fence, have been lied to, blatently, ... BIGTIME.
Jimmie, you have no clue, or idea, how pissed off they are.

Jimmie boy, prepare yourself for the worse kickass of your lifetime. ... and remember, a Goldwater voter is telling you this.

Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

How did you get rid of this guy--I forget.

He blithers on and on like an idiot--does he even know hw makes no sense?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jim, Copeland was the one that created the monster that lead to the high end market getting killed. Hence, you can thank him for the slabbed stupidity and lazy collectors that no long bother to learn about the cards they collect. Do you honestly think that in the early days of PSA that they were finding more altered cards then they do today? I'm guessing more got by because the doctors were ahead of the game at that time.

Reciting the history and how many cards in a set is nothing. Having a card in your hand and being able to tell that the finish looks wrong, the thickness doesn't feel right, the card stock doesn't look right etc, that is true knowledge of a set.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Jay about one aspect of Jim Copeland- he began collecting unlike anyone before him, and it seemed like he single-handedly changed the way people perceived quality cards. There were collectors of high end cards before him, but when his collection went on the block in 1991, you could sense a change coming in the hobby.

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Posted By: leon

I can't believe you just said this:

"Then the Registry came and vthe hobby took off as collectors had the confidence that what they were buying was not altered.

Jim"


You said that but have admitted you have little confidence in a a number of your PSA plastic slabbed cards being unaltered. Which is it? Do you have confidence or not?...Or do you just stumble over what you say as you can't keep up with your own rhetoric?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think he was refering to PSA's intitial emergence on the scene.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Easy their Leon, don't let your typing fingers get ahead of your brain.

In the early 1990s the hobby took off and what has continueds until the middle of this decade--the divers were PSA giving collectors the confidence that that the cards they were buying were unaltered and vof course the PSA Set Registry.

More recently the abilities of the card doctors have gotten ahead of the graders and I suspect that some of the cards getting into PSA 8 holders have been altered.

Jay,

Copeland created it but it was guys like Marshal and Charlie sending in their sets to PSA followed by Don Louchios, John Branca and others and then the skyrocketing popularity of the PSA Set Registry that caused the hobby to zoom higher.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jim, no denying that, but my point is that Copeland created the monster that exists today. He unknowingly helped foster the card doctoring business that lead to all the major problems that exist today.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: leon

I will concede that I thought Jim was talking about today and not 17 yrs ago....my bad, and apology, on that. I do feel PSA is a great marketing machine and grading has helped the hobby get bigger...PSA just needs to do a better job, from all I have seen, in catching alterations.... regards

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I don't agree with JIM C on grading cards......
but, I have to agree with him on his comment that most people in this country are "moderate to conservative"
in their political ideology. This is a fact once you leave the NY - NJ - New England area.

And, I don't agree with your statement.....

"Jim, I agree with you on the reason for the Democratic sweep last year. What is surprising to me, however, is
the low poll ratings Bush gets from Republicans."

Here in Pennsylvania (and west) the Dems that replaced Repubs in Congress ran on a Conservative theme.

And, speaking about Congress (House and Senate).....why isn't the "media" touting their Poll ratings which, as
you very well know, are lower than Prez Bush's ratings. Congress' ratings are less than 20%....and, falling.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay and Leon,

Agree with both of you--now I can get out to the pool.

Jim

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Posted By: jay behrens

Lou Dobb's brings up Congress' hoirrible ratings all the time. Dobb's is just about the only level headed talking head out there. He goes after Dems and Reps alike.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, fair point. I agree that the media is very liberal for the most part and Congress' approval ratings are in the toilet too. However, no one much cares for that rating; the rating of the President is much more significant and interesting to most.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"PSA just needs to do a better job, from all I have seen, in catching alterations"


Agreed, but how? They feel that they have the very best in place. Will not consider creating a senior level position that deals only with advanced (or any) alterations. From what I understand graders do not go to any training sessions and most of their senior graders, however good they are, are not up to date with the latest techniques....not even close.

As I mentioned, I live 20 miles from PSA (60 miles from GAI) and was looking for a career change. Seems like a no-brainer of where my services would fit best. At least Joe O. was very polite in the email rejection. My ego is not that big where I need to pursue what's not there. He did ask if I wanted sit for the grader test. My ego then kicked into gear and I asked him if he wanted me to test his senior graders (LOL).

Seems PSA is back to square one. Keep those cards coming, send in your payment and Little Johnny will decide if your $10K cobb card has been altered...after his parents sign the work release of course. Now if he reads the Scarlet Letter in English class that day, everything he grades in 20 seconds will be stamped with a big "A".


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think Dan B hit on the fact that because of the large price differential between PSA 7s and 8s, for example, a lot of nefarious people out there will do all they can to alter cards, smooth out creases, doctor, etc. cards in order to get bumped grades with higher resales. Some of these dealers even use multiple ebay IDs to buy their own cards in case the final price is not to their liking. Any dealers or auctioneers who post regularly out here want to accept some responsibility for the problems with today's grading? Anyone? Anyone?

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Posted By: peter chao

Well, if the grading system was perfect we wouldn't have 229 posts.

Peter

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Posted By: MikeU

I am going to have to side with Jim C. on his Repbulican views as John Paul has my vote hands down.

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Posted By: Greg Montieth

1. First off, leave Jim Crandell alone. To whomever thinks that he should re-grade his 25k card collection...why don't you fork over the $ to pay for the minimum $125k in fees plus shipping, plus replace cards that were either deemed to be altered or were knocked down a grade or two. It's quite an asinine request.

2. Don't think that SGC or GAI are beyond detecting fakes. I have a SGC 96 Jack Younglood rc that has been rejected by PSA 3 times for "evid of trimming". Go figure. Not to mention GAI which authenticates fake autographs (I've been lucky enough to buy several).

PSA has its failings but is not the only company with problems.

Regards,

Greg M.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

Nevermind Though it was 100% true in my opinion.
Edited to leave 53 Grateful Dead shows and yes I am a liberal and a patriot.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Hey Greg,

The only asinine thing here is a guy continually shooting his mouth off about the need to clean up the alterations problem in the hobby, but then when we ask him to lead by example, by putting his cards to the test, the answer is an absolute, unconditional, uncategorical, emphatic, no holds barred -- NO. So let me guess what you'll say, why should he have to have 25,000 cards re-examined? Well then, let's start with his T206's. As I recall they total in the low hundreds, and wasn't there a post in which someone said they will subsidize the re-examination cost. And why, you'll then say, should he incur the financial loss when some of them inevitably come back as altered? I can think of three reasons: 1) a true collector would be interested to know the real state of what he has, 2) it will go a long way toward acccomplishing his incessantly stated goal of reforming the grading industry as regards alterations, which goal cannot be practically accomplished unless and until people are willing to have their cards re-examined, and 3) simple basic integrity -- to prevent the cards from someday being unloaded on some good faith purchaser who believes he is getting what he is paying for.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

PSA has two of the top graders in the hobby. The problem is that with the volume they do, those two graders cannot sign-off on every card graded.

In my opinion, PSA does not do a good enough job in enforcing its tiered maximum $ system. Too many high-dollar cards are allowed to be submitted under $500 Maximum value submissions. These submissions are less likely to be scrutinized by the top grades.

They need to setup a better triage system, where the most valuable, difficult to grade and or authenticate cards are sorted to the most experienced graders.

Let the least experienced grades grade 78 Topps commons.

Also, another solution would be to limit turnaround times. I believe their are people trying to fedex orders into PSA when it is known that the top graders are, on vacation, at a grading invitational etc. In other words, in order to get your card in front of an inexperienced grader, all you have to do is find out when the top graders are gone and pay for same day or next day service.

Lastly, I think PSA is aware of these things and is working to remedy them.

CB

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Posted By: Anonymous

No Greg, the real asinine thing is that there is some guy who because you point out concerns about grading demands as a litmus test that uyou submit your psa cards for regrade to prove how serious you are. Take out the inine and add an s and thats what you have there.

Charlie--who besides Reza do you consider to be the other
top grader there?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Steve Van Maanen

http://www.collectors.com/experts.chtml?task=SteveVanMaanen

CB

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Posted By: Anonymous

Thanks--Steve must keep a low profile--I don't know him.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Charlie- I find one thing you said truly amazing, that submitters find out the schedules of the top graders and wait for them to go out of town before they overnight their questionable cards?

If that is true, then this whole grading thing is a load of crap and nothing but a big game. It's all about finding ways to manipulate the odds in your favor. That was my premise for starting this now very long thread. The system is broken, there isn't enough consistency, and the people who are good at playing the game can get the results they want. And collectors pay multi-thousands of dollars for high grade cards. Simply shameful!

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

He might be one of the best at original cuts (edges). An idea might be to have a holder or flip that corresponds to the specific grader and or service level. If someone pays $5 to grade a Goudey Ruth that grades an "8" it might worth less than a flip or holder that was graded "8" under a $100 service and or by a more experienced grader.

I have been telling Mike Baker, who I believe is the best (no offense to the guys at SGC because they are right there with Baker) to put his name on each GAI flip that he grades. A personal Mike Baker pedigree service. I think those cards would command a premimum or in GAI's case at least SMR.

There is definately room for improvement but I would much rather have a third party grade the cards than the guy I am buying them from.

I reject the notion that a dealer grades the card more accurately. In fact, I think many old-time dealers rejected and resist grading to this day because they can make immediate margin by overgrading cards. I know there are alot of raw card dealers who buy cards in vg-ex condition and sell them as ex+. At least with a Third Party grading service there is no immediate arbitrage that a dealer can take advantage of.

Every proliferating business needs to change and adjust to the market place or they are left behind. I think the big three will make the changes. Currently, SGC and Dave Forman are the most proactive. But I think there is room for three grading services which would benifit the consumer/collector in many ways.

CB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Charlie- I agree with everything you said except one: a dealer who graded his own cards but continually overgraded them would not survive and soon be out of business. Between constant returns and bad word of mouth, he would never make it. So he would very quickly learn how to do it right.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Charlie,

That is one of the most intelligent, informative posts I have read here--thanks for sharing your knowledge. I couldn't agree more with your characterization of old-time dealers.

Jim

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Posted By: jay behrens

Look at Larry Fritsch, he's been around forever and he couldn't properly grade a card if his life depended on it. yet, he is still one of the top dealers in the hobby. Old timers may not be able to grade according to slabber standards, but as a collector, you learn the quirks of each dealer and act accordingly.

In the 80s, the only cards I ever bought sight unseen, was when I bought all of Gavin Riley's MN Twins regional issues. The few dealers that I bought from thru the mail were dealers that I had dealt with person also and had a good handle and what to expect for their given grade.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- Fritsch is a good case in point and all I can say is he survives simply because he has such a massive inventory, and because his prices are reasonable. So if he calls a card EX and it's really Good but he only charges a Good price, I guess that's one way to keep people happy. He's also been around forever and has a friendly return policy.

If someone were relatively new to the business and continually overgraded his cards, I don't think he would make it.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

I hate to disagree with the venerable Barry Sloate, but I will. I don't think any of the people that have bought pre-war graded cards have been victims. I think for the most part they have profited grately. I think this hobby or business is Caveat Emptor first and foremost. The fun of this hobby or business, is the hunt for the undervalued item. Whether it is an auction won cheaply, an undergraded card, a large raw deal that can be graded to realize a larger value etc.

There are many purists in every hobby that truly love the items they collect, the smell, the feel, the memories etc. The fly in the oitment is always the value of the collecitble. The vast majority of humans will put a price on their collectibles (not to disparage those who do not and will be buried with their cards). And because each person values cards or any collectible for that matter diffently, there is a market for cards, at a certain price a person is a buyer at another a seller.

Many people are surprised at the volatility they see realized at auctions? Why? Any given collectible is valued uniquely by a given person based on all the reasons I cited earlier. A Jewish Hall of Fame collector will pay more for Koufax cards than a Negro league collectors. Get two Jewish Hall of Fame collectors interested in the same lot in the same auction and you get volatility. Why is this bad?

Auctions have replaced many retail collecitble operations because there is an element of entertainment in following the auctions, bidding etc..

Barry, You want things to work perfectly, graders to get it right the first time etc. That provides opportunity for bargain and value hunters. A card that is mislabled or undergraded or listed incorrectly is equivilant to seacrhing high and low at a garage sale for the hidden gems.

If every card was graded accurately it would be like buying and selling bonds that trade at bar. Every graded baseball card trades at a discount or premimum to par based upon all the factors discussed earlier. It is the collector/dealers task to figure out for themselves is the graded card trading above or below par. For example, a collector/dealer must know that in general pre-war cards trade at a premium to SMR and 1970's topps cards sell at a discount. This is commensurate with the knowledge that in general a centered baseball card is more valuable than an OC card. And a card graded VG/EX with a technical problem that looks NM is worth more than a similar card graded VG/EX with severely rounded corners.

The joy in the hunt lies in the inconsistencies not the other way around. Opinions about grading, value, scarcity will always be imperfect and will always drive price action.

Trimmed cards should never be allowed to be in holders we can all agree on that. But, as a collector/dealer it would be smart to figure out what a trimmed card in or out of a holder looks like and avoid it. Instead of bemoaning the system for not cataching the trimmed card we should all share our knowledge (like Kevin) to help each other avoid the mistakes made by the grading companies regarding alteration.

CB

Edited somewhat for spelling errors, my 10 month-old is climbing all over my laptop as I opine.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You can disagree with me anytime, I'm not all that venerable.

You make some good points about searching for those undergraded cards, and I know you like to resubmit looking for that higher grade. I guess it would be hard for me to find fault with that. But there is so much money at stake that I just thing there really is a lot of pressure to get it right. I would expect a little bit of inconsistency but I am not comfortable with the level that I see. And I hear too many stories about things that go on that make me very uneasy.

If a very good customer is offered a bulk discount or a little more timely return on his submission, that's fine because good customers are entitled to favorable treatment. But if they are getting friendly grading bumps to keep their business, then that crosses the line. You tell me, is that stuff going on?

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

I think they dont do favors for people like most think. I feel if a large submitter has a problem they may relook at the card(s) for them but i honestly think they dont give the grading favors many charge them with.