Jeter SP Foil auction

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And yet, in his prime, he was nowhere near the shortstop Yount or Banks were in theirs. Banks won two MVPs. Yount won two, also. One at shortstop, another in center field.



LOL at mentioning Jeter's fielding as being part of the reason the Yankees were successful.

First of all, regarding his base running, he was decent on the bases. Let's not make him out to be Rickey Henderson as a base stealer, or Stan Musial with the doubles and triples, because he wasn't. Stealing 356 bases in two decades, and 4,717 times on base, isn't that great. That he leads the Yankees all-time shouldn't be surprising, as the Yankees have historically been a team built around power. Rickey Henderson stole 326 in five years with the Yankees, so he nearly equaled Jeter. Henderson also had a 135 OPS + those five years with the Yankees. Jeter had one season in twenty (1999, 153) with an OPS + over 135. That's why Henderson's considered an all-time great. Jeter just didn't get that many extra base hits, either. His last fifteen years, he averaged 28 doubles, 2 triples and 13 home runs, or 33 doubles, 3 triples and 16 home runs per 162 games played, in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts. In 1996, his first full season, there was a league average of 5.39 runs per game, the third highest in the 117 years of American League history. Between '96 and 2005, there were an average of 5.01 runs scored per game. Compare that to the last five years, when there were an average of 4.46 runs per game. When you consider what other premier hitters were doing, Jeter's offensive numbers look downright paltry.



Games played, times on base, plate appearances, at bats. Compiled stats from a long career.

Hits? The last five years, Jeter was downright awful. He combined for 4.9 WAR, worth less than one win a season. If his name weren't Derek Jeter, the Yankees would have (and should have) canned him. Only a decent 2012 where he hit .316 salvaged the last quarter of his career from being a complete embarrassment. Like Rose at the end of his career trying to top Cobb, Jeter was clearly just trying to get to 3,000 hits and beyond. He got 718 hits those last five seasons, with a 94 OPS +. He was 6% below league average with the bat, and abysmal defensively.

And, I know the awards. All Star Games are popularity contests, so a guy playing in (by far) the most populous city in America being sent 14 times, when in a handful of those seasons he clearly wasn't deserving, doesn't impress me. Robin Yount wasn't even an All Star in 1989 when he won the MVP. The most deserving players don't always go, and sometimes, a player goes just because their name is Derek Jeter, even when they were worth 0.2 WAR for the whole season. Same with the Gold Gloves. He was at best an average shortstop in his prime, and awful otherwise. The Silver Sluggers? Somebody at every position has to win one. Jeter won one in 2008 with a 102 OPS +. The position in the American League was abysmal that year, so he was the least undeserving player. The award shouldn't have even been handed out that year because American League shortstops were pathetic. The other four seasons he put up pretty good numbers.



Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker are immortals of the game. Jeter doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with those other men. And Rose? Well, Rose and Jeter are a good deal alike at first glance. They played long careers, and put up some monster compiling numbers. Jeter was a career .310 hitter in 12,602 PAs. In 12,935 PAs, which covered the period 1963 to 1980 (when Rose turned 40, the age at which Jeter retired), Rose was also a .310 career hitter. Jeter had a 115 career OPS +, and Rose, at the same point, was at 124. And they had similar career WAR. But unlike Jeter, Rose actually won three batting title, and he led the league in doubles five times. He led the league in hits seven times (Jeter did it twice), and in runs scored four times (once for Jeter). He also led the league in OBP twice.

And the postseason records? He was a member of the Yankees for two decades, a franchise that was in the playoffs nearly every year. He should be at or near the top in many categories, don't you think? Again, games played, at bats, plate appearances, hits-when you play a long time on a team that is incredibly successful, you amass those numbers. He was a .308 hitter in the post season. Pretty good, but hardly spectacular. He had some great post season series, and he had some terrible ones. Overall, he was a pretty good player in October. But is he close to being one of the best performers in playoff history? Nope.

Derek Jeter is worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. But his "greatness" as a player is totally overblown. The second half of his career, he was a slightly above average offensive player, and awful defensively. The last seven years (or, one third) of his career, he had a 101 OPS +. That's league average, folks. I know WAR isn't the ultimate metric, but if we're going by that for a quick eyeball test, and 5 + WAR is considered All Star level, from age 26 on, the last fifteen years of his career, Jeter had exactly three seasons that were All Star caliber. 2001 was a 5.2 WAR, 2006 was a 5.4, and 2009 was a 6.6 WAR. He had one other fringe All Star caliber season with a 4.6 in 2000. Besides the 4.2 he put up in 2004, he failed to reach 4 WAR in ten seasons. By WAR, he was All Star caliber in six of his eighteen full seasons.

Jeter is in the Hall because he hit .310 lifetime with 3,000 hits, 75% of which were singles.

This is outstanding. I agree with everything here. I am not a Yankees fan (Red Sox, in fact), but I respect Jeter and the way he played the game and am glad that he's retired now so I can openly express that respect. But 'Stache is correct.

However, Jeter had a penchant for "moments" and was able to build a legend that way. I believe there's an unquantifiable merit to that and it is in that merit that naysayers and Yankees fans reach an impasse. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Arthur

[Dpeck100]

I think all of the super hot chicks he got to spend quality time with also has helped his legacy.

Jeter is the guy that has it all!

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

This is outstanding. I agree with everything here. I am not a Yankees fan (Red Sox, in fact), but I respect Jeter and the way he played the game and am glad that he's retired now so I can openly express that respect. But 'Stache is correct.

However, Jeter had a penchant for "moments" and was able to build a legend that way. I believe there's an unquantifiable merit to that and it is in that merit that naysayers and Yankees fans reach an impasse. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Arthur

That's it, it's about the "moments"... nobody remembers that Koufax struggled his first 6 years of his 12 year career... everyone remembers his refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur, and leading the Dodgers to world championships... who cares about the fact Koufax only had 6 great years...

How about the guy that in 1999 batted .324, 47 HRs, and 148 RBI's. The same guy for his career had 3,020 hits, 569 HRs, 1835 RBIs, and batted .288.

What was his WAR in 1999? Should this player be in the Hall?

Can you guess who the player is.... Rafael Palmeiro....

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by BLongley

That's it, it's about the "moments"... nobody remembers that Koufax struggled his first 6 years of his 12 year career... everyone remembers his refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur, and leading the Dodgers to world championships... who cares about the fact Koufax only had 6 great years...

How about the guy that in 1999 batted .324, 47 HRs, and 148 RBI's. The same guy for his career had 3,020 hits, 569 HRs, 1835 RBIs, and batted .288.

What was his WAR in 1999? Should this player be in the Hall?

Can you guess who the player is.... Rafael Palmeiro....

Eh...I think it is disingenuous to post Palmeiro's stats without naming him, then asking if the player should be in the Hall of Fame. Palmeiro is one of the most notorious steroid guys of his era. There is a gigantic reason he is not in the HoF, and it has nothing at all to do with his numbers.

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Eh...I think it is disingenuous to post Palmeiro's stats without naming him, then asking if the player should be in the Hall of Fame. Palmeiro is one of the most notorious steroid guys of his era. There is a gigantic reason he is not in the HoF, and it has nothing at all to do with his numbers.

You think Palmerio would be in the Hall if he put up those numbers and didn't take steroids? I can't remember any big game moments with him and I grew up watching him and others... should Fred McGriff be in the Hall? He hit 493 HRs same as Lou Gehrig...

Palmerio proves my point exactly and there are others we can find and use if you want... Jeter played during an Era of steroid users and batted against pitchers taking them too... two players that Stach mentions as being better short stops than Jeter are notorious roid users too... Tejada and ARod...my point is that it's not all about the numbers and I did name Palmerio at the end... I'm just trying to let you all know how I'm thinking...

[steve B]

A few random thoughts on the last several posts.

Big game moments..... Meh, otherwise I'll be happy to see Kirk Gibson in the hall. Some of Jeters "big" moments were I felt overrated. he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does.
dive into the stands after a ball? Yep, same deal.
Both very good plays, and on the other side, I saw another Yankee player in the late 70's early 80's make an almost identical dive into the stands at Fenway and lose the ball, his hat, glove, and nearly jersey.... Yes, Jeter got a bit more respect. they also got out of the way, which is why he hit his head on the seat.... Hmmm ... respect?

Banks and Yount didn't win world series etc.
Don't you think that says more about their teams than them?
If it was all about one guy, the 78 series could have been decided by the Allstar break, instead of after that other shortstop who won't be named hit just his 5th HR of the year in the last game/extra game of the regular season.

There's a reason we chanted "Nomars better" as much as a year or two after Nomar got traded, even at the point where he just wasn't better anymore.


I do have to say that even though he was a Yankee, I did respect Jeter and how he played the game as well as his overall attitude. When he was asked about being booed in Boston for so long he said the fans of the two cities were a lot alike, and that being booed meant that the fans of the other team recognized you were actually pretty good as they usually didn't bother doing that to the bad players. It's pretty hard to dislike a guy who plays hard and seems to understand the fans too.

[BLongley]

"he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does."

Go watch those plays again and I'd be curious if you said the same thing...

As I mentioned I'm a Yankee and Jeter fan so I know I'm biased, but I will recognize other great plays by players when they are great!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BLongley

"he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does."

Go watch those plays again and I'd be curious if you said the same thing...

As I mentioned I'm a Yankee and Jeter fan so I know I'm biased, but I will recognize other great plays by players when they are great!

Most pros can make really great plays. Didn't catch the time on many of them, but the ones at 1:06 and 2:10 are particularly nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRUu7yNmLXo

A few more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qbaKuai7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U5Yu8y0LmU

The one here at 1:13 is really similar to another play of Jeters that was raved about as the "greatest play ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDgL91zBVLo


None of that is to say that Jeter wasn't an excellent player and fielder. Some of the plays that are his best were I think a product of having a lot of awareness of where the throw or play in general was going and the ability to both see that and put himself in the place he needed to be to have any chance of making the play work. That's something that isn't really teachable and doesn't always rely on raw athletic ability.

[WillBBC]

I always found this play by Jeter to be his most impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Yt8r9ybS8

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BLongley

You think Palmerio would be in the Hall if he put up those numbers and didn't take steroids? I can't remember any big game moments with him and I grew up watching him and others... should Fred McGriff be in the Hall? He hit 493 HRs same as Lou Gehrig...

Palmerio proves my point exactly and there are others we can find and use if you want... Jeter played during an Era of steroid users and batted against pitchers taking them too... two players that Stach mentions as being better short stops than Jeter are notorious roid users too... Tejada and ARod...my point is that it's not all about the numbers and I did name Palmerio at the end... I'm just trying to let you all know how I'm thinking...

500 HR and 3000 Hits, yeah Palmeiro is in no doubt.