Dangerous, dangerous T205s on ebay

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Posted By: TBob

There are some reprinted T205s on ebay which have been treated to look like they have a little edge chipping and border wear and light stains on the back. They are very scarey looking because they are so close to the real thing...

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Posted By: jay behrens

links or item numbers would be helpful

Jay

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Posted By: TBob

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2710035712&category=31719

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Yet another example of a future fraud. Note the high feedback of "0". I hate to support the slabbers, but I really do not see myself buying a high dollar vintage card without it being in an SGC or GAI or PSA holder. At least then someone has actually looked at the card.

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Posted By: runscott

I don't like the odds of success when purchasing ANY big-buck high-grade card, slabbed or otherwise. Friends have questioned why I buy mid-grade cards, and that's why - though I have been very tempted recently. The recent NM-MT Tango Eggs Weaver had a BIN that really got me thinking. So what could go wrong? trimmed, corners repaired...based on what I've heard from other posters, the risk just isn't worth it to me.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Tbob
I guess I'm the odd man out here, but I don't think this card looks real at all. Maybe I've seen to many over the years and can't relate. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

warshawlaw and runscott- It would seem to me that you have quite a bit of knowledge in vintage cards. Would you not feel comfortable buying a high-grade vintage card ungraded that you had a chance to examine yourself or from certain dealers?
In part because of this board I feel more comfortable buying pre-1930 cards ungraded but only from certain dealers.

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Posted By: Julie

that absolutely evenly spaced edgewear is humerous; what are those three bright spots, like little suns?

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Posted By: runscott

I have been told that it is easy enough to identify trimmed pre-war cards, but I personally don't feel comfortable that I can spot a "good trim job". Maybe if I spent some time with an expert it would be easy to learn.

Yes, I would buy high$, high-grade slabbed cards from BMW if I saw something I wanted at the right price - they describe the card, not the slab, and though I deal with lots of reputable dealers, very few can spot alterations (or want to) when a card's in the plastic and has the big price-tag on it.

I would be curious to hear about other dealers that board members feel do a good job with high-end slabbed cards.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

runscott-Thanks for answering my question. However, I was referring to ungraded cards. For example, I would trust Mark Macrae more than I would trust a grading company to give me an accurate grade for a pre-1930's card. When I wanted to buy Julie's Old Judge Galvin I would trust her opinion of the card more than a grading company. When I go to Frank Ward's site I trust his opinion of the card more than a grading company or if I see a card in a Barry Sloate auction. I admit I am different with modern (post WWII) cards but for pre-war I feel more comfortable with the dealer than anything else.

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Posted By: runscott

I buy mid-grade cards from almost anyone, provided I get a good scan or description and the dealer doesn't look like a fraud. But higher-grade unslabbed expensive cards are a different issue - I have a number of dealers I trust completely to be able to identify altered cards, or to give me a refund if I think the card is altered. So far, so good.

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Posted By: leon

The guys clearly states it is not real....I don't see a problem here except for ya'll not reading exactly what it says. Maybe I am missing something? Surely you guys read the sellers caveats about "looking" 100% authentic. The next paragraph says he is supposed to say it is not real and that is what he has done. Are we so prone to jumping on bandwagons that we overlook the obvious? If you read the description once you might not see it but the second time I read it I didn't have a problem. Maybe it's just me regards all

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Leon-

You are correct that in the body of the auction, he clearly blathers on about how it is a copy, but is amazingly real, is one of the most sought after "blah blah blah". He's doing this all over eBay tho, and some of his auctions are less murky than others.

My biggest issue with this twit, and a couple others doing the same thign right now, is that their LISTING or auction HEADLINE does not clarify "copy" or "reprint" or "replica". eBay's listing policies say that this is a violation...in that, the listing or auction heading must not misrepresent what is being offered.

In this case, the guy's headline says:

Cy Young 1911 t205 Hall of Fame

This card is NOT a 1911 t205. Thus, it is clearly a misrepresentation and an eBay listing violation. I've reported about seven of these so far to eBay (auctions of this nature represented as an authentic Matty, until you got to the description below). Of course, eBay sits on its hands and does nothing...

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Guessing a seller's intentions can be iffy in some cases, but not in this one. He says in his description that the card "has been treated and appears just like a real t205 (i.e. edge chipping and color staining)." Why would anyone "treat" a reprint unless they were intending to deceive a buyer?

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Posted By: TBob

The point is not that you or I can spot the fake and that the seller alludes to the fact of its being a reprint, the danger here is that one of the unscrupulous guys out there buys it and turns around and sells it for a couple hundred on ebay to someone who isn't as wary and/or knowledgeable as we are. Either that or it winds up in a PRO or AAA holder and sells for a ton.
Bill hits the nail on the hed, why the hell would someone age and doctor it to make it look real rather than simply sell it as the reprint it is, unless either he or someone down the road is going to hook somebody?

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Posted By: runscott

Albie and I got off on a tangeant - seeing this fake card stirred up some questions and we discussed them. I'm not a 'thread purist', but perhaps we should have started a new one.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with you that it could end up in a fraudulent transaction down the line....as well as a lot of other cards. My only take was on this auction .....and I agree too that he should put the word "reprint" or "fake" in the title....but again, in THIS auction I still don't see the deception.....regards all

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Posted By: runscott

...but unless it's an item that their pimply-faced security squad has any interest in (like Playboys), they don't enforce it.

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Posted By: Chris Ko

What is the exact dimensions of t205s? Were there any cards for some reason or another different from the rest in terms of dimensions? I have two t205s both graded by psa that are the same measurement, however, I have a 2003 Topps T205 buyback that appears longer than the two t205 PSA graded. How is this possible. . .either both my psa's are trimmed or the buyback is longer?? here are the links

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=2747173937

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2749066885

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Posted By: Ben

Chris, t205's sometimes come oversized, and my guess is thats probably what you have. Don't worry, your PSA Matty looks just fine.

Ben

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Posted By: Elliot

Chris, I think you need to "invest" in a copy of either the Standard Catalog of Cards or the Beckett big book. This will give you all kinds of information about virtually all cards that have been issued, and also a "guide" to prices. The SC lists t205's as 1 7/16" x 2 5/8 ", although card sizes vary. I don't think you need to be overly worried about the cards that have been graded by PSA. Although they make mistakes, for the most part they (and any other "reputable" grading service) do a reasonable job.

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Posted By: Chris Ko

Elliot:
Thanks for the tip/advice. Will try to pick up those books. Thanks to all for your help.
Chris

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Posted By: runscott

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2752016461&category=641

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Posted By: Elliot

Agreed, Lipset's book is very good and provides additional info that is not available elsewhere. Chris, you do not need both books that I mentioned---one of them will do. The 2nd book you should purchase is Lipset's.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

it's probably what they call a "jumbo," a card, probably from the upper row, when the upper border of the upper row was a bit high.

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Posted By: Chris

Thanks to all for the reading suggestions. I just picked up the Lew book from Jay off ebay. Will get the standard book as well. Thanks again.

Anyone subscribe to Vintage and Classic Baseball collector? Any thoughts on it?
Chris

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Posted By: Elliot

The new Standard Catalog should be out later this month. Jays is the publisher of VCBC and my guess is that a sample copy will be included with your book.