Is this argument bunk?

[mintacular]

I was talking to a hobby shop owner and he argued that one reason eBay $'s are lower is because they reflect the built-in "mistrust" buyers have buying online. By not being able to hold and see the card for yourself, the amount you might normally pay is less due to this uncertainty...Add in the issues with not knowing who are good eBay sellers/shipping concerns (legit or not) and you are going to get some lower sale prices.

So for example, if a 1958 EX Mantle sells for $200 on eBay this price reflects the buyer's (and underbidders) cautious attitude to the true "EX" nature of the card...

If you factor in shipping costs (mostly with lesser dollar cards), is this a decent argument for sellers at shops/shows to argue for charging higher prices, so long as they are in the same ball park as eBay prices?

I guess some of the merit of this argument weakens when you consider graded cards. The reasons I bring up this topic is that I met a guy at the flea market and he was griping about how he recently bought a lot of '69s on eBay and half of them were overgraded, etc. and how he didn't mind paying more from the dealer we were buying from, not to mention he doesn't pay shipping. Maybe there is room left for person-to-person selling of cardboard pictures of baseball players after all

Thanks for your opinion(s).

[Section103]

Yes and no.

There are a lot of variables to consider. For some cards and for some buyers - yes, the fact that the card cant be hand-held and condition is somewhat "suspect", it can indeed reflect in the price. I think the bigger drag on prices due to eBay comes from the increased supply that you wouldnt necessarily have available otherwise. If you're searching for a card that can be found on ebay, chances are it can be found multiple times and easier than you would at brick and mortar stores.

[FUBAR]

I would think its the "wholesale" vs. "retail" price.

Dealers have to compensate for overhead...they have a tough haul with the internet.

More or less, simple as that, in my opinion.

[Doug]

I like buying stuff on eBay, but there is something to be said for actually being able to see the item in person as opposed to just a scan or a third party graders opinion. There's been times where I've bought a card at a discount because the scan/picture was lousy and was pleasantly surprised when I saw it in person, but there's probably been an equal amount of times where I've bought a card only to find it to be over graded (IMO) or that the scan was auto touched to make the card more attractive in the scan than it turned out to be in person. Basically it's a gamble and that could reflect the lower prices compared to a retail store where you can actually evaluate the item in person before making a purchase.

[Steve D]

I would say there is some merit to that argument, but not much.

If it were true, then why do PSA/SGC graded cards, with nice big, clear scans of both front and back, from known reputable sellers, still bring prices that are significantly below what B&M shop owners charge.

To me, the biggest reason for B&M shop owners charging "higher than ebay" prices, is the fact that they must be able to pay rent/utilities/employee salaries/etc for their shop. Ebay sellers don't need to do this, as for the most part, they're selling from their living room/den/mancave. So basically, ebay sellers have a huge built-in advantage.

Steve

[HRBAKER]

I think what ebay gives people is insight into just how many of a certain card is available. Now discounting high grade jockeys and condition mongers, if a person is seeking an EX condition Mantle as in your example, ebay demonstrates that by exercising a little patience one can be bought at an ebay-like price bc ebay has made the actual supply much more visible and available to a buyer. This is very unlike, 1 card in a dusty showcase in a card shop.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I would say there is some merit to that argument, but not much.

If it were true, then why do PSA/SGC graded cards, with nice big, clear scans of both front and back, from known reputable sellers, still bring prices that are significantly below what B&M shop owners charge.

To me, the biggest reason for B&M shop owners charging "higher than ebay" prices, is the fact that they must be able to pay rent/utilities/employee salaries/etc for their shop. Ebay sellers don't need to do this, as for the most part, they're selling from their living room/den/mancave. So basically, ebay sellers have a huge built-in advantage.

Steve

I don't have an actual shop so I can't compare costs, but they don't have to deal with eBay and PayPal fees. If I buy a card on eBay and I'm not satisfied with it and my only option is to resell it, I have to try and flip it for enough of a profit just to cover the costs of selling it. Depending on the price of the card that can be pretty tough.

[Matt]

How do these store prices relate to most eBay BIN prices?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Doug

I don't have an actual shop so I can't compare costs, but they don't have to deal with eBay and PayPal fees. If I buy a card on eBay and I'm not satisfied with it and my only option is to resell it, I have to try and flip it for enough of a profit just to cover the costs of selling it. Depending on the price of the card that can be pretty tough.

That's very true Doug, but I can't imagine the ebay/paypal fees coming anywhere close to B&M rent/utilities/employee salaries/etc.....

Maybe they do, but I'd be shocked if they did.

Steve

[mintacular]

All very valid points so far. Again, I am not referring to dealers who are trying to sell vg cards for NM book $'s...I think we can all agree those days are over and those dealers are done for in large part to eBay, and thankfully so.

But a couple years ago I was on the other side of the spectrum and attributed a card's "value" to finalized eBay sale prices ONLY. Now, after some seasoning, and checking out cards at various venues (flea markets, cards shows, shops, other websites) my idea about a card's (monetary) value has evolved--unfortunately in a slight upward direction

While I wouldn't pay $600 for a '58 Mantle, if a dealer had one at a show for $250 vs. the $200 ones on eBay I would CONSIDER paying the extra $50 if I thought it was strong for the grade, etc.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Matt

How do these store prices relate to most eBay BIN prices?

Another good question would be how to eBay prices relate to auction house prices? If I'm going to buy a $10k card I'd probably feel a bit more comfortable buying it from REA or Goodwin than I would JoeBob123 on eBay (sorry if that's actually a real person ). I think the option of a return policy comes into play too. I might be willing to pay a bit more from a known seller that will allow me to return the card if I'm not happy as opposed to someone I've never dealt with that has an all sales final policy.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by mintacular

While I wouldn't pay $600 for a '58 Mantle, if a dealer had one at a show for $250 vs. the $200 ones on eBay I would CONSIDER paying the extra $50 if I thought it was strong for the grade, etc.

I completely agree with you.

It's basically the old "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" saying. You have the card in hand, and can actually see exactly what you're getting before forking over the money. If it's a strong example, you buy it. You then don't have to worry about taking the time to try to find one, perhaps at a lower price, and wondering if it will measure up.

Steve

[Matthew H]

Previous to ebay, No dealers sold '58 Mantles in EX for 200. I would be shocked if you were able to buy one in EX condition in hand for 250. One thing I've learned about ebay is that if a card is not in a holder, its over graded. I'm sure this is not always true, but I have learned to think that way. I have learned the hard way.

I have bought cards from reputable dealers that made no mention of bends or wrinkles and over graded the card. I understand why they do it. Before PSA everything EX and above was Mint.

[Leon]

Not sure if this answers the question but I would pay a little more for a card I can touch and hold in person. I would also pay a small bit more from a reputable auction house. Both have built in safety nets which ebay doesn't offer. And I do mean only a little more. Maybe I would pay an extra $20-$40 for a card valued under $500. That being said my biggest fear on ebay is a seller's friend bidding/shillling on a card and then me winning it. When/If I go to resell it then the price suddenly plunges. I know it can happen at auction houses too but it's not quite as likely, as many auction houses do some policing (believe it or not), and though it's not perfect, it's better than nothing. At least buying in a straight private sale (or at a store) I know I am not being run up .

[barrysloate]

I always felt buying in person was far riskier than buying through the mail, especially in the days before grading. If you purchased a card through a mail order dealer, and had say a seven day return privilege, you had ample time to examine and measure a card, even use a blacklight to check for alterations. If you didn't like it, you could just return it.

At a show, you are often standing under dim lighting and a forced to make a decision within a few minutes, without the proper time to examine a card. I can't tell you how many times people purchased cards at shows, took them home and examined them closely, only to discover a trim, alteration, or recoloring, and then couldn't even remember the dealer they bought the card from. I used to hear that story regularly many years ago.

Today, if you buy off ebay or from a reputable auction house, you have a huge scan that can be studied as long as needed. Added that it's likely been slabbed, there's no reason not to buy with confidence through the mail.

Buying in person and holding a card in hand is a plus, but one often does not have the time to examine it in a quiet relaxed atmosphere before making a final decision. Buying at shows was always a mixed bag for me.

[Jewish-collector]

But at a show, I can get Leon to take a look at it to make sure it's as described before I spend my $5 on it.

[JasonL]

I think there's a huge discount applied to buying raw cards. In fact, unless I really don't care about the card's condition much (rare), I won't even buy a raw card off Ebay...so that's a 100% discount.

With raw cards, I have found that one man's EX is oftentimes my G-VG.
I really hate that surprise when I open the mail.

There should be no such discount applied to cards bought in person (raw or graded), or graded cards on EBay