Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[barrysloate]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Collectors don't care enough to change things. Criminal deterrence is one possibility, but I am not sure how realistic proof beyond a reasonable doubt in this context is, even assuming a governmental body deemed this an important enough issue to devote lots of funding to, and even then, most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

Hey no plugs. He can afford a banner ad.

[barrysloate]

I do believe Peter, that although we always say "buy the card, not the holder", a great majority of collectors do in fact swear by the label. If a card is trimmed but the label says 8, all is well with the world.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses that facilitate them have made it a very difficult hobby to navigate for people who care to some extent about having unaltered cards in decent grades. The best I have been able to figure out is to scrutinize cards pretty carefully within the limits of my knowledge of how to detect alterations, to avoid certain sellers like the plague they are, and to VCP every card I am thinking of buying to see if it can be traced to one of those sellers. But I am sure it is only effective to a limited extent.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by botn

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

So are you going to stop buying graded cards?

[MattyC]

Peter, no, not at all. I will happily continue to collect. I just think that what sometimes gets lost in the discussion, with there being more than enough (deserved) blame to direct at the card doctors, is the responsibility of the TPGs to keep stepping their game up. That's all.

Often times they do charge way more than $5 for their service. Depending on the value and turnaround time requested, a single card can cost quite a bit more than single digits.

Everyone has their own expectations and tolerance for those expectations not being met. I respect those differences in all of us. To each their own.

That said, I'd love to have bosses or customers who look at my performance when it's off and simply say, 'That's okay, you are doing your best.' It's impossible to quantify or know how hard the TPGs are trying, which makes any healthy debate difficult. All we can see is some of what gets through, and some of what is grossly misgraded. I would actually agree that they get it right the vast majority of the time, so the question each individual has their own right to answer is: what success rate is expected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

[ullmandds]

I for one do not believe that the third-party graders Are doing the best that they possibly can!

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

Their sigma level is where they can afford it to be, probably a 3 (93.3% accuracy). To lower it significantly would be cost prohibitive. The cost of raising their effectiveness to a 4 (99.4%) could possibly mean that the price per card that has been discussed would be a pipe dream. I would estimate it to be in the $75 range.

As someone mentioned, the higher price would preclude many lower end cards from being submitted. This would have the dual effect of reducing the cost and improving accuracy. However, the cost would still be much higher than the present, as the decrease in volume would necessitate an increase in margin.

As in everything in life, you get what you pay for.

[D.P.Johnson]

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

+1

[botn]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

Well of course, but my point was that the people who are in charge with catching the bad guys do not always get them despite doing everything in their power. So what are the alternatives?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

I am sure the grading services do the best they can, but the economics of the business, as well as the greater skills of card doctors, limit their effectiveness.