Greatest All-Time Dodgers question

[hawaiian bam bam]

Hello,I am working on an All-time dodgers greats project and i was wondering in YOUR opinion, when you hear their name, you automatically think of dodger greats for the top 25 players (+ or-) below is my list, who would you add/delete to this list? (no specific order) I will update/adjust this list as we go.

All Time Dodger Greats
Sandy Koufax
Clayton Kershaw
Orel Hershiser
Fernando Valenzuela
Steve Garvey
Davey Lopes
Bill Russell
Ron Cey
Maury Wills
Don Sutton
Mike Piazza
Don Newcombe
Kirk Gibson
Mike Scisocia
Pedro Guerrero
Dusty Baker
Tommy Davis
Eric Gagne
Reggie Smith (Switch out Reggie Smith for Carl Furillo)
Ron Perranoski
Claude Osteen
Mike Marshall-(pitcher) (Switch out Mike Marshall for Carl Erskine)
Manny Mota
Eric Karros
Ramon Martinez
Dave Hansen
Jackie Robinson
Don Drysdale
Roy Campanella
Duke Snider
Pee Wee Reese
Gil Hodges
Jim Gilliam
Willie Davis
Tommy Lasorda
Vin Scully
Walt Alston

Updates:

Switch out Reggie Smith for Carl Furillo
Switch out Mike Marshall (Pitcher) for Carl Erskine

[Bravesfanjd]

Koufax
Drysdale
Gil hodges
Campanella
Duke snider
Pee wee Reese
Jackie
Lasorda
Sutton
Scully
Garvey
Lopes
Cey
Russell
Hershiser
Maury willis
Gibson
Piazza
Karros
Kershaw
Fernando
Scioscia
Rick monday
Tommy Davis
Gilliam
Alston

[howard38]

It seems that you've left off all of the pre-1950s players such as Wheat, Vance, Camilli, etc. Dave Hansen has no business on the list and a few others are debatable. I'd suggest you do a roster check of the Dodgers teams from about 1950 on back. You'll definitely find a ton of players that should be included.

[glenv]

Here's a list of HOFers that have played on the Dodgers: http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...l_Hall_of_Fame

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by howard38

It seems that you've left off all of the pre-1950s players such as Wheat, Vance, Camilli, etc. Dave Hansen has no business on the list and a few others are debatable. I'd suggest you do a roster check of the Dodgers teams from about 1950 on back. You'll definitely find a ton of players that should be included.

+1

[hawaiian bam bam]

thank you for your post. i think ill revise the question how about the greatest LOS ANGELES dodgers, ill still include the brooklyn dodger HOFers, but i dont want to add players from hundreds of years ago that no one really knows unless they are baseball buffs like us! but looking more for a greatest team that most people will know for example the average fan might not know who wheat or camilli are but i think everyone knows who jackie robinson, reese, snider, campy hodges are.

so now with the new clarification, who is your LOS ANGELES dodgers all time greats list/team?

also, i picked dave hansen because i believe he is the dodgers all time pinch hit king

[Topps206]

How about some love for Burleigh Grimes?

[Beatles Guy]

I'd take Steve Sax over Dave Hansen.

[KCRfan1]

I would add Carl Erskine. Life long Dodger between Brooklyn and LA, threw 2 no-hitters, and a 20 game winner in 1953. I know this is your list, but it's hard for me to view a player as a " great " if they are with the team for only 2 or 3 years.

[hawaiian bam bam]

yes, erskine was one of the last players i cut from my list. i might have to re add him.

sax was right behind erskine, i picked hansen solely because he is the all time dodgers pinch hit king. sax was a very, very good dodger but not sure about one of the greatest dodgers (top 25)

i agree about players not being great after only a couple or few seasons with the dodgers. i was looking at a few different all time dodgers lists on the internet(google search) and some lists have shawn green, gary sheffield and adrian beltre on it. all great dodger "seasons" but i think green and sheffield only played a couple or few seasons with the dodgers. he only played a few seasons for the dodgers

mike marshall (pitcher) was a dominant dodgers reliever, but some say the best dodgers closer ever? he only played a few seasons for the dodgers! i think i would rather give the ball to eric gagne than mike marshall!

same with kirk gibson almost every list has gibson listed as a dodger gall time great. we all know he had that great home run, but besides that, is he really a dodgers all time great. all time greatest dodger hr run, i can see , but should he be mentioned in the same breath as koufax, hershiser, snider, reese, robinson, drysdale, hodges, campanella etc?

[39special]

Don't forget Carl Furillo

[hawaiian bam bam]

yes! perhaps switch out reggie smith for carl furillo? i like reggie, but after looking at numbers furillo might be a better fir for one of the spots on my list.

[39special]

Furillo is forgotten on a lot of lists. He was a hell or a right fielder.

[hawaiian bam bam]

After looking at his stats just now I agree! And he played his whole career for the Dodgers. I'll have to switch out either reggie smith or Dave Hansen for him. Thanks for your input , I appreciate it.

[almostdone]

I have to agree. Both Erskine and Furillo would make my list.
Drew

[hawaiian bam bam]

Also to answer a post from above, burleigh grimes was a heck of a pitcher. His stats are amazing however it's hard to find a spot in the rotation with koufax, drysdale, hershiser, valenzuela and sutton. also with ramon martinez and kershaw as my other pitchers. what do you guys also think about claude osteen, tommy john, jim brewer, hideo nomo and ron perransoki as pitchers?

[hawaiian bam bam]

Yes, I'm leaning toward switching out reggie smith for furillo and switching out mike Marshall the pitcher for Carl erskine . Thanks guys for your help with this! Any other swap outs on my list that you would recommend?

[FourStrikes]

Walter O'Malley belongs: no Walter = no LOS ANGELES Dodgers ( sorry Brooklyn )

[jason.1969]

I took the liberty of organizing your list into a roster by position. This may help how you think about your list and also help others think about who might be missing.

What you have already is a pretty well-rounded roster, particularly if you factor in the position versatility of some of the players. I've added in red text some other guys that I might throw in for consideration.

CATCHERS
Mike Piazza
Mike Scioscia
Roy Campanella

FIRST BASE
Steve Garvey
Eric Karros
Gil Hodges
Wes Parker - one of the best fielding 1B ever; I'd take him over Karros personally.

SECOND BASE
Dave Lopes
Jackie Robinson (could move to 3B or 1B)
Jim Gilliam (could move to 3B)

THIRD BASE
Ron Cey

SHORTSTOP
Bill Russell
Maury Wills
Pee Wee Reese

OUTFIELD
Kirk Gibson (could move to PH, as in 88 WS)
Pedro Guerrero (could move to 3B at your own risk!)
Dusty Baker
Tommy Davis
Carl Furillo
Duke Snider
Willie Davis
If you need a defensive specialist, remember Derrel Thomas?

STARTING PITCHERS
Sandy Koufax
Clayton Kershaw
Orel Hershiser
Fernando Valenzuela
Don Sutton
Don Newcombe
Claude Osteen
Carl Erskine
Ramon Martinez
Bob Welch had some good seasons and memorable moments.

RELIEF PITCHERS
Eric Gagne
Ron Perranoski

PINCH HITTERS
Manny Mota
Dave Hansen

MANAGERS
Tommy Lasorda
Walter Alston

ANNOUNCERS
Vin Scully

[KCRfan1]

Jason,

I noticed Drysdale is missing from the list, which I'm sure is just an oversight.

BamBam,

If you are wanting to limit yourself to 25 players, you will have to make some " tough " decisions about who you personally feel belongs. This is your list, after all. From Jason's organized list, personally I would remove Scoscia, Gibson, Baker, Osteen, R. Martinez ( not sure what he did other than being Pedro's brother ). I would settle on 1 pinch hitter, 1 relief pitcher, 1 manager, and 2 first basemen.

The Dodgers have such a long and storied history, that forming a roster of 25 greats can be difficult. It would be difficult to do with any franchise that has been around for a long time. This is your team and selection though. Who do you like for your 25 greats?

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Jason,

I noticed Drysdale is missing from the list.

Sorry, my error. Definitely the OP included the Big D!! Thx for the catch.

[cool-vintage]

RF: Darryl Strawberry
CF: Duke Snider
LF: Zack Wheat
1st: Dan Brouthers
2nd: Jackie Robinson
3rd: Ron Cey
SS: Pee Wee Reese
C: Mike Piazzia
P1: Sandy Koufax
P2: Greg Maddux
P3: Rube Marquard

[hawaiian bam bam]

Thank you all for your response and help with this and a big thank you to jason for this amazing breakdown of the team: i think jasons team might be my final dodgers team listed below. im going to review stats and finalize a team in the next few days. so far here are the finalists and my questions regarding the "final candidates" if anyone can help with these questions below:

CATCHERS
Mike Piazza
Mike Scioscia-good or great? anything he did to be considered a dodger legend?
Roy Campanella

FIRST BASE
Steve Garvey

Eric Karros-does he get your vote, lots of power, hits and 1992 ROY
Gil Hodges

Wes Parker - one of the best fielding 1B ever; But does he get the nod over the power and hits of Karros?

SECOND BASE
Dave Lopes-good or great dodger? with robinson and gilliam locks for the team, is there room for lopes? is h justified as a dodger great?

Steve Sax-good player or legendary dodger?

Jackie Robinson
Jim Gilliam

THIRD BASE
Ron Cey

SHORTSTOP
Bill Russell-with wills and reese and short is there room for russell? what makes him a dodgers great?

Maury Wills
Pee Wee Reese

OUTFIELD
Kirk Gibson-what is great about him besides that famous HR? was a a good dodger or a legendary dodger? the dodger outfield is crowded with greats so he might need more than just a game winning home run to be considered great. your thoughts?

Pedro Guerrero-what makes him great. i loved watching him play, but what say you?

Dusty Baker-a couple good seasons but what bumps him up into legend status?

Tommy Davis
Carl Furillo
Duke Snider
Willie Davis

any love for Brett Butler?
any love for Raul Mondesi?
any love for mike marshall?

STARTING PITCHERS
Sandy Koufax
Clayton Kershaw
Orel Hershiser
Fernando Valenzuela
Don Sutton
Don Newcombe

Claude Osteen-What makes him deserving on a legendary staff like this? i think he has awesome stats, but what do you think?
Carl Erskine

Ramon Martinez-will swap him out for drysdale

Bob Welch- had some good seasons and memorable moments. but a dodger great?

what about:
Jerry Reuss
Tommy John
Hideo Nomo
Chan Ho Park

RELIEF PITCHERS

Eric Gagne-was he great or was he on steroids?

Ron Perranoski-i struggle with this one. how good was he in your opinion?

Mike Marshall- dos 2-3 great seasons make a legend?

PINCH HITTERS
Manny Mota
Dave Hansen-dodgers all time pinch hit leader. any love for him over mota?

MANAGERS
Tommy Lasorda
Walter Alston

ANNOUNCERS
Vin Scully

[KCRfan1]

I would take Kenley Jansen over the relief pitchers you have selected.

[hawaiian bam bam]

You are do right . After comparing stats of Jansen and gagne. Jansen actually has more saves for the dodgees than gagne. I never knew that. That's why I love this thread because there is so much knowledge here. Thank you. I think I'll switch out gagne for Jansen .

[jason.1969]

But don't forget to add Drysdale back...I accidentally missed him when I put your guys in position order.

[hawaiian bam bam]

Yes, I'm going to swap out Ramon Martinez for drysdale . This is fun! Keep the posts /advice coming.

[digdugdig]

I still remember, about 20 years ago at my "local watering hole", striking up a baseball conversation with an elderly man (at that time) about his childhood baseball heroes.
A Brooklyn Dodgers fan, it was so cool to hear his stories of his beloved "Bums" and his favorite player, Pete Reiser.
I'll never forget that encounter, and actually collected Pete Reiser cards after the fact, just 'cause ... well ... I enjoyed that conversation so much ... he sold me

[jason.1969]

I would keep Russell if only to keep the "record setting infield" intact. Dropping Russell would be like making a Cubs team with only two guys from Tinker/Evers/Chance.

[hawaiian bam bam]

Very true I think ill Leto for just that reason because I don't think he is a dodgers legend but it would be weird to have Garvey, Cey and lopes and not him. So he will make the team but barely and only by a technicality! As without the infield record he would be of the team!

[hawaiian bam bam]

Pete reiser was great and deserving of a spot on the team but with so many great dodgers they can't all make the team . I might have to increase from 25 to 30 players!

[jason.1969]

Guerrero was my favorite of the mid 80s. I lived and died with that 1985 tram that won the West but lost to the Cards in the NLCS.

Pedro was pretty much the only offense the team had. Of course, if you check the pitching stats for Orel, Fernando, and Welch...not too much help was needed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Burleigh Grimes, Dazzy Vance, Zach Wheat notable omissions from the latest list.

[ooo-ribay]

Dusty Baker, because he came to the light.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

thank you for your post. i think ill revise the question how about the greatest LOS ANGELES dodgers, ill still include the brooklyn dodger HOFers, but i dont want to add players from hundreds of years ago that no one really knows unless they are baseball buffs like us! but looking more for a greatest team that most people will know for example the average fan might not know who wheat or camilli are but i think everyone knows who jackie robinson, reese, snider, campy hodges are.

so now with the new clarification, who is your LOS ANGELES dodgers all time greats list/team?

also, i picked dave hansen because i believe he is the dodgers all time pinch hit king

Jackie Robinson never played for the Los Angeles Dodgers, and Pee Wee Reese played a grand total of 59 games in Los Angeles. If you are making it "only" Los Angeles players, that's fine, as it's your narrative. But you're excluding many of the greatest players the franchise ever had by doing so.

Any all-time Dodgers list without Wheat, Robinson or Reese isn't worth doing.

[the 'stache]

Pre-1950 was "hundreds of years ago"?

Dave Hansen is on your list because he leads the franchise in pinch hits? Hansen played 15 seasons in total, eleven with the Dodgers. In those eleven seasons, he was worth 3.6 wins to the team. He was worth less than one-third of a win annually to the franchise.

Yet you exclude Carl Erskine, who in 1953 had a WAR of 4.2 as he won 20 games for the Dodgers. Erskine, in one season, made more of a contribution than Hansen did in over a decade with the Dodgers.

I don't know if I would include Carl Erskine on the Dodgers all-time roster. But he sure as heck would make it long before Dave Hansen.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

STARTING PITCHERS
Sandy Koufax
Clayton Kershaw
Orel Hershiser
Fernando Valenzuela
Don Sutton
Don Newcombe

Claude Osteen-What makes him deserving on a legendary staff like this? i think he has awesome stats, but what do you think?
Carl Erskine

Ramon Martinez-will swap him out for drysdale

Bob Welch- had some good seasons and memorable moments. but a dodger great?

Are you freaking kidding me? Ramon Martinez over Hall of Famer Don Drysdale?

Quick trivia question. What player in the entire history of the Dodgers, has the highest Wins Above Replacement?

Sandy Koufax? Nope.
Duke Snider? Nope.
Clayton Kershaw? Nope.
Jackie Robinson? Nope.
Zack Wheat? Nope.

Don Drysdale has a 67.0 career WAR while wearing the Dodger blue. Cy Young winner, eight-time All Star, winner of 209 games for the Dodgers....and Ramon Martinez bumps him off your all-time team. Between 1962 and 1965, Drysdale won 85 games. He led the NL in wins (25) in 1962, starts four times, strikeouts three times, WHIP and Ks per 9 IP once each. Ramon never led the NL in any meaningful category. And his career WAR, 26.3, is nowhere close to Drysdale's.

You are a Dodgers fan, are you not? What, may I ask, is your logic for swapping Ramon Martinez for Don Drysdale? He doesn't get points for being Pedro's brother.

[jason.1969]

Bill, I think you read the posts wrong. Drysdale was only off the list when I made a typo. And then the OP dropped Martinez to make room again for the Big D.

[the 'stache]

One more thing to consider when comparing Drysdale and Martinez.

Hitting.

While Ramon Martinez was a weakling at the plate, Drysdale could flat out rake. Martinez had 1 home run in 596 career at bats. Drysdale is third in Major League history with 29 carer bombs in 1,169 at bats. Drysdale had 26 doubles, 7 triples, 29 home runs, and drove in 113 runs. The guy ahead of him, Warren Spahn, had 6 more homers, but over 700 more at bats.

You've got to have Drysdale on your all-time Dodgers team. And you really need to consider all the players that have ever played for the franchise. Eliminating the early part of the franchise's history because "not a lot of people know about those players" is a bad decision, in my opinion. Use it as an opportunity to educate some people.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Bill, I think you read the posts wrong. Drysdale was only off the list when I made a typo. And then the OP dropped Martinez to make room again for the Big D.

It looked to me like he was switching Martinez in place of Drysdale. If it's the reverse, ok then. I will withdraw my point of contention there. Thank God, because my head was going to explode. I know how easy it is to forget about a guy (see my head scratching omission of Christy Mathewson in the all-time pitchers discussion a few months ago).

But he still needs to include all the players in the franchise's history. Greatness is greatness, and limiting it to only the Los Angeles years needlessly excludes a lot of the game's best.

[the 'stache]

Jason, the confusion for me was how HBB worded his choice changes.

In one post, he says "Switch out Mike Marshall for Carl Erskine", meaning Marshall is in, Erskine is out.

Then he says, "Yes, I'm going to swap out Ramon Martinez for Drysdale." If he is being consistent, that means Martinez is in place of Drysdale.

No biggie. Drysdale is on the list, that's all that matters.

[hawaiian bam bam]

bill , you need to relax bro, this is for fun not to have a coronary about things! geez! relax!

my wording might be confusing but it makes sense to me and in the end thats what matters most. sorry you didnt understand what i was trying to say. the majority of folks understood it, so its a mute point.

if i picked all of the brooklyn greats then yes i could pick a complete 25 member team with just brooklyn dodgers. for example if i picked pitcher bob longtooth, how many people would know him? or even saw him pitch? if i say sandy koufax or clayton kershaw, how many people know them and how many people actually saw them play? a whole lot more. if i picked first baseman tom big bottoms, who would know him? probably no one, but if i say steve garvey, 99.9% of people even not dodgers fans, will know him or have seen him play.
again, yes i can build a team of a bunch of people no one has heard off that were great"back in the day" but what fun would that be? with the exception of grimes, wheat etc.

i think people like players they connect with. for some when people say dodgers they think robinson, hodges, reese, koufax, drysdale hershisher, piazza, garvey, snider scully, lasorda , valenzuela. for others when they think dodgers they think cox, johnson, smith, taylor and morgan. to each their own, im trying to pik a team of greats that are legends, legens to me are players that EVERYONE knows like koufax, drysdale jackie robinson duke sniooder, orel and fernando. every dodger fan knows them!

lets have fun with this and not try to have a heart attack about "wording" or how one interprets or reads things.

[the 'stache]

Oh, I'm good, and enjoying the topic, HBB. The Dodgers are not my team, but I certainly love reading about them, or talking about them. In fact, some of my all-time favorite players have been Trolley Dodgers. Ask me how many times I've watched Brooklyn Dodgers: The Ghosts of Flatbush HBO documentary, which is perma-saved on my DVR. If I could go back in time, I'd live in Brooklyn in the 1950s, and walk to Ebbets Field with Duke and Oisk. There was something very special in Brooklyn-a real sense of community, and I don't know if it's been replicated since.

The average baseball fan today would have no clue who Eddie Collins was. Should he be excluded from the all-time Athletics team, if we had that discussion, just because the average fan is devoid of historical appreciation? Not in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. Like I said, it's your list, and you can do it however you want. I'm happy to contribute if I can. I just want to be true to the established parameters.

And BTW, when I say something like "my head is about to explode", it's not meant to be indicative of some impending myocardial infarction. Rather, I couldn't believe that one of the all-time great Dodgers was going to be excluded. Perhaps I over embellished there. That's my bad. I was trying to convey absolute shock. I do that sometimes.

If you want to build the team from players that have name recognition only, we can do that. But some great players like the aforementioned Zack Wheat, and Nap Rucker, will be overlooked in the process.



Let Nap in! (I had to, one of my favorite cards from the T206 set)
38 career shutouts, 4th best all-time for the franchise behind Sutton, Drysdale and Koufax.

[hawaiian bam bam]

no problem at all, glad your enjoying this thread, it is fun!

[hawaiian bam bam]

still working on my list. its becoming tougher and tougher to cut players as when i was comparing stats, pedro guerrero has better stats than dusty baker, johnny podres has better stats than carl erskine, and andre either is quietly approaching the top 10 all time in home runs. eric gagne is out because of PED use.

[the 'stache]

Believe me, when you're essentially doing what is a labor of love, it's never easy. I tried to do one for my Milwaukee baseball teams (the Brewers and Braves. The franchises are different, of course, but I consider them one in some bizarro world logic that only I adhere to). You would think that a city that has only been to the World Series three times, winning it once, would be easy to do.

Wrong.

Since Milwaukee is once again a National League city (as they should have always been), I have no designated hitter, and that screws everything up.

Going back to your list, I see you mentioning guys like Shawn Green. Even though he only spent five seasons as a Dodger, I'd take him over Andre Ethier in a New York minute. Ethier has never cracked a 4.0 WAR in any of his ten seasons in L.A. Green had two monster offensive seasons with overall 6.9 WARs. And Ethier is a trip to the DL waiting to happen. Green missed 12 games in 5 years. His other three years weren't as good as 2000 and 2001, but Green's peak blows Ethier's out of the water.

In five years, Green hit more homers (162) than Ethier has in ten (159).