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  #401  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Yes, most probably not water.

I did a bit of looking up on how deacidification is done, and I have become convinced it's been bleached.

I still feel a bit mixed about that. If it's done right, as in the way professionals do it with art, I think it won't do damage. The biggest problem is that there's no disclosure, especially of the method. And without that, here's no way to get a feel for the actual skill of who did it.
As I've said many times, if it's so damn legit and acceptable and accepted as Brent claims, why not disclose it?
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  #402  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
As I've said many times, if it's so damn legit and acceptable and accepted as Brent claims, why not disclose it?
I personally don't see any reason to avoid disclosure.

For someone in business, they maybe avoid it because in our hobby there's a stigma to it, even if it is actually a good thing.
Like I said, personally I'd disclose and take my lumps for it if any. Not everyone would, and maybe fewer would if the money involved was substantial.
I can't say that if it meant a difference in income of anything close to a million I would feel differently. (I suspect not, since I'm not altering cards... )

Sent over some info by PM, it's findable, but I'm not going to serve it to people an a silver platter.
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  #403  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:41 PM
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I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276
And, PSA even labeled it wrong as a 1914. That could be part of the reason it sold for more if the buyer wasn't paying attention.
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  #404  
Old 08-19-2019, 05:11 AM
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Default Another CJ Cobb undergoes card surgery

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=215
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  #405  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
As I've said many times, if it's so damn legit and acceptable and accepted as Brent claims, why not disclose it?
Plus no one hides the fact when there is conservation going on in other areas in life.
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  #406  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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So the list of cards discovered doctored just keeps growing. Does anyone know how far along they are in the database for discovering how many there are in total?

Also, if PWCC is purportedly buying back doctored cards they sold, are they buying back only the cards that have been outed as doctored or are they preemptively buying back everything they sold originating from Moser?
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  #407  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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So the list of cards discovered doctored just keeps growing. Does anyone know how far along they are in the database for discovering how many there are in total?

Also, if PWCC is purportedly buying back doctored cards they sold, are they buying back only the cards that have been outed as doctored or are they preemptively buying back everything they sold originating from Moser?
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  #408  
Old 08-19-2019, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby View Post
So the list of cards discovered doctored just keeps growing. Does anyone know how far along they are in the database for discovering how many there are in total?

Also, if PWCC is purportedly buying back doctored cards they sold, are they buying back only the cards that have been outed as doctored or are they preemptively buying back everything they sold originating from Moser?
I don't believe it's anywhere close to an end, and the total number will never be known. The before and after "reveals" will continue for a very long time. The doctoring has been going on forever, and it is not easy to access all the impacted cards.

As for PWCC, they are buying back cards upon victims' request. I do not believe they are seeking out the victims on their own, or making voluntary refunds/restitution. Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.

The mass-butchering is not limited to PWCC, either. Hopefully the FBI is investigating PSA to the fullest extent, with regard to submissions by known or suspected offenders. That will lead to many more discoveries that the BO folks might never be able to uncover.
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  #409  
Old 08-20-2019, 05:59 AM
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Default D304 Cobb

Brent purchase out oF REA.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5403
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  #410  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:25 AM
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I know in at least one case, pwcc reached out to a friend and bought back a mantle they said had been altered - pwcc took the initiative. But I doubt that is the norm. I a bet they only do that for biggest customers and bigger ticket items and wait for the rest to come to them.

Peter, I saw that on blowout. It was a Lionel Carter card. Itís one thing to jack something old, rare and already super valuable. Itís another to piss on such important provenance.
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  #411  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
I know in at least one case, pwcc reached out to a friend and bought back a mantle they said had been altered - pwcc took the initiative. But I doubt that is the norm. I a bet they only do that for biggest customers and bigger ticket items and wait for the rest to come to them.

Peter, I saw that on blowout. It was a Lionel Carter card. Itís one thing to jack something old, rare and already super valuable. Itís another to piss on such important provenance.
He was only conserving it for the good of the hobby.
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  #412  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:42 AM
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Seeing this latest cobb makes me hope that J lichtman took the case to intentionally lose it so Brent/Betsy rot in hell for the damage they've done to this hobby.

What are the odds???
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  #413  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
The mass-butchering is not limited to PWCC, either. Hopefully the FBI is investigating PSA to the fullest extent, with regard to submissions by known or suspected offenders. That will lead to many more discoveries that the BO folks might never be able to uncover.
Thanks for the response. No doubt this is the tip of the iceberg of what has been going on for some time by multiple dealers.
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  #414  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post

That's truly tragic that one of the rarer Ty Cobb cards, (and likely others as well) from the historical Lionel Carter collection are being altered (and losing its pedigree in the process) in order to make a profit.
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  #415  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:01 AM
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It turns out this card was first outed right here in 2017, on the WWG DiMaggio thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=602

A CJ Jackson from the same PSA sub also was outed with a before pic.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-20-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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  #416  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:22 AM
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Greg is banned? I know Kevin seems to think Greg is involved in no good, but in my direct experience with Greg, itís the exact opposite and is a stand up guy. Indeed, he is apparently the one who outed the Cobb back in 2017 (per Peterís post) and those efforts remain true to my knowledge. I hope Greg is active on blowout.
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  #417  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby View Post
That's truly tragic that one of the rarer Ty Cobb cards, (and likely others as well) from the historical Lionel Carter collection are being altered (and losing its pedigree in the process) in order to make a profit.
It makes that picture of the Wizard at the HOF exhibit all the more revolting, to me.
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  #418  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Greg is banned? I know Kevin seems to think Greg is involved in no good, but in my direct experience with Greg, itís the exact opposite and is a stand up guy. Indeed, he is apparently the one who outed the Cobb back in 2017 (per Peterís post) and those efforts remain true to my knowledge. I hope Greg is active on blowout.
Greg has been very instrumental in the Blowout efforts.
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  #419  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Greg has been very instrumental in the Blowout efforts.
+1
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  #420  
Old 08-20-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Greg has been very instrumental in the Blowout efforts.
Good. In my experience, Greg is a solid guy and a friend of the industry (and he has great taste in cards).
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  #421  
Old 08-21-2019, 05:50 PM
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Is it just me or does this card look way short ???? Left and right or maybe worse ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-...p2047675.l2557

Does anyone know if this was Outed on BO

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-21-2019 at 05:50 PM.
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  #422  
Old 08-21-2019, 09:02 PM
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Card looks narrow, but this one has not yet been outed. Last series of outed Look-N-See's start at page 199 and some have cert numbers starting with 423, so graded in the past year.
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  #423  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Greg has been very instrumental in the Blowout efforts.
THis would be nowhere near as big as it is without Greg's efforts. He has been a bulldog in his pursuit of this story. Greg in my experiences is out to do good and right some of the major wrongs in the hobby. apparently he has done some transgressions in the past but i do not know that Greg the one i know has been a standup guy and been fighting for a cleaner more open hobby.I know he and Leon have always clashed but I do not feel Greg should be banned from NEt54. His work on blowout is evidence enough of that in my opinion.
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  #424  
Old 08-22-2019, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
THis would be nowhere near as big as it is without Greg's efforts. He has been a bulldog in his pursuit of this story. Greg in my experiences is out to do good and right some of the major wrongs in the hobby. apparently he has done some transgressions in the past but i do not know that Greg the one i know has been a standup guy and been fighting for a cleaner more open hobby.I know he and Leon have always clashed but I do not feel Greg should be banned from NEt54. His work on blowout is evidence enough of that in my opinion.
what was the backstory regarding his ban? In my limited dealings with him seemed like a stand-up guy.
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  #425  
Old 08-22-2019, 09:12 AM
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Is it just me or does this card look way short ???? Left and right or maybe worse ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-...p2047675.l2557

Does anyone know if this was Outed on BO
All the look n see's should be. I like the way that rolls out...Look and see how bad it's trimmed.
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  #426  
Old 08-22-2019, 09:20 AM
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All the look n see's should be. I like the way that rolls out...Look and see how bad it's trimmed.
How can I find the list to research this ?

Thanks Chuck

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-22-2019 at 09:21 AM.
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  #427  
Old 09-01-2019, 04:00 PM
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I believe this thread was posted elsewhere, but I am adding it here because in addition to some modern stuff MANY vintage cards have been outed here from a new alleged card doctor.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750

Many new cards also have been outed on the '52T Mantle thread.

The only way to keep up with this is, well, to keep up with it.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-01-2019 at 04:16 PM.
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  #428  
Old 09-01-2019, 05:10 PM
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This seller has been doing some vintage PSA set breaks on COMC with a lot of PSA 9s that now have to be considered questionable.
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  #429  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:10 PM
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A tainted submission is on deck, according to BODA.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14998656
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  #430  
Old 09-02-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
A tainted submission is on deck, according to BODA.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14998656
Every that they list more bad cards is the less and less I believe anything positive will come from the FBI investigation

Hope Iím wrong
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  #431  
Old 09-02-2019, 07:59 AM
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As it increasingly appears that a huge number of modern cards have been trimmed, and that many people are doing it, I would think it might be hard running a major auction without taking consignments from any of these people.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-02-2019 at 08:00 AM.
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  #432  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:14 PM
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Default wtf

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=881

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  #433  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:48 AM
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Quick, lets start a registry set with all of the trimmed cards out there. Maybe it can be the Trimmed Set category? Who will have the best set?


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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=881

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  #434  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:15 AM
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Peter, are they no longer posting altered cards on the Mantle thread?
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  #435  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:32 AM
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There were a number posted fairly recently but the focus for the moment is on cardbuyer, another reputed doctor who appears to sell or have sold through PWCC. The submissions containing outed cards have not been reconstructed for quite a while but suffice it to say they would contain far more cards than I listed when that process was active.
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  #436  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quick, lets start a registry set with all of the trimmed cards out there. Maybe it can be the Trimmed Set category? Who will have the best set?
I bet 48 Leaf sets would be relatively easy.
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  #437  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:49 AM
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I bet 48 Leaf sets would be relatively easy.
Seems that was Moser's special set.
I was at the National this year when a 50 something year old bald guy (like me) got on a hotel elevator with me. He saw me wearing my Net54baseball T shirt. He said something to the effect of "oh, you guys are the ones who are always mad and unhappy." I said, no we are the ones that don't bury our heads in the sand about fraud. I thought he was an idiot.
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  #438  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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Thanks Peter. I have been following that cardbuyer thread as well, but all of those are more modern than what I collect, so I have no been as vigilant checking in there.
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  #439  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks Peter. I have been following that cardbuyer thread as well, but all of those are more modern than what I collect, so I have no been as vigilant checking in there.
The stuff from the big pre-war doctors is going to be a lot more difficult if not impossible to trace. I doubt those guys are even going to try. The only way to ever get at the iceberg would be to see TPG submission lists, and even then you would have to know not only who the doctors are but who they submit through.
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  #440  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
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Seems that was Moser's special set.
I was at the National this year when a 50 something year old bald guy (like me) got on a hotel elevator with me. He saw me wearing my Net54baseball T shirt. He said something to the effect of "oh, you guys are the ones who are always mad and unhappy." I said, no we are the ones that don't bury our heads in the sand about fraud. I thought he was an idiot.
Leon, lets be a little classier. We are Vintage Contrarians. Are we not?
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  #441  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:58 PM
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=881

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The right edge and top are also trimmed.
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  #442  
Old 09-07-2019, 11:30 PM
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Presented without comment.

https://www.baseballcardinvestigation.com/

If you have had your sports trading cards graded by sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA, Beckett Authentication Services or SGC and sold at auction by PWCC.




Have you graded any sports card (baseball, basketball, football, etc.) by major sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA or Beckett? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.




Have you purchased a sports card from eBay seller PWCC marketplace? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.
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  #443  
Old 09-08-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Presented without comment.

https://www.baseballcardinvestigation.com/

If you have had your sports trading cards graded by sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA, Beckett Authentication Services or SGC and sold at auction by PWCC.




Have you graded any sports card (baseball, basketball, football, etc.) by major sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA or Beckett? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.




Have you purchased a sports card from eBay seller PWCC marketplace? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.
Where are the civil suits? There can't be a problem unless there are civil suits!
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  #444  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:56 AM
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Show me a scandal and I will show you plaintiffs' attorneys flying lazy circles overhead. Not that there's anything wrong with that; a civil lawsuit may be the only way PSA and Beckett feel the wrath of their victims.
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  #445  
Old 09-14-2019, 07:22 PM
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The BO list of alleged sellers to avoid. Most modern I think but still perhaps of use. Supposed to be updated soon.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...85&postcount=1
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-14-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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  #446  
Old 09-14-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The BO list of alleged sellers to avoid. Most modern I think but still perhaps of use. Supposed to be updated soon.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...85&postcount=1
Mainly modern but I still expected to see WAY more than the one Net54 member.
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  #447  
Old 09-14-2019, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
Mainly modern but I still expected to see WAY more than the one Net54 member.
My impression is they don't accuse lightly. Certainly some familiar IDs there to those who dabble in modern cards.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-14-2019 at 08:48 PM.
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  #448  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:52 PM
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Has anyone returned anything to PWCC successfully? I purchased a 66 Mays SGC 8 in August that I don't want to take a chance with, so I'm interested in any conversations anyone has had with Brent lately. Thanks, Alex
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  #449  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:47 AM
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I think Betsy is the point person for recalling cards for which PWCC believes there is evidence of alteration and which PWCC offers to work with the seller and the TPG to refund, take out of circulation, and turn over to law enforcement.

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  #450  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:33 PM
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Somebody seriously needs to post an update on this whole mess. Since the FBI got involved, what exactly has changed?
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