WW3 Please SAY NO!

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by jgannon

You're first link says: "These assertions were sharply challenged at the time by other observers, including former U.S. policymakers who played a direct role in the German reunification process. George H. W. Bush, Brent Scowcroft, and James A. Baker." Gee, I guess if those honest boy scouts say it, it must be true!

Hmm, way to prove your point by attacking people and not claims. Your personal bias does not prove anything.

Originally Posted by jgannon

And you quote...The Brookings Institute, lol - that "humanitarian" think tank that was such a passionate advocate for the Iraq War.

See above.

Originally Posted by jgannon

The Yaffa article says: 'In the early nineties, Bill Clinton’s Administration was curious enough to look into the matter, commissioning an investigation on the question of deploying nato troops east of Germany. The takeaway was emphatic: Yeltsin was wrong. The agreement was limited to the role that nato could play in a united Germany, and had nothing to do with other countries in Eastern Europe. American diplomats should “pointedly remind the Russians of this basic fact,” the report said. Another opinion, this time from the German foreign ministry, ultimately agreed, but acknowledged that Russian claims contained a “political and psychological substance we had to take seriously.”'

Please note the highlighted text. Confirms what you're saying, no? NO

Originally Posted by jgannon

The last article yes, does confirm my point of view.

The article doesn't confirm your point of view, it only reiterates it. If I say the earth is flat and link to a site that also says the earth is flat, would that confirm that the earth is flat? In the meantime, the article does contain links to 30 documents that support their/your view. Surely you can find something in one of those documents that backs up your assertion.

Originally Posted by jgannon

The thing is, the U.S. had Russia down on the mat for years. They meddled in their elections and have also withdrawn from key treaties like the ABM, INF, and Open Skies Treaties. The U.S. participated in the coup that deposed Yanucovych and has turned a blind eye to the conflict in the Donbas. They've armed Ukraine as Putin has repeatedly made it clear that Ukraine and Georgia's inclusion into NATO was unacceptable. Even if there were no promise, which I believe there was, geopolitically it was damn stupid and arrogant for the U.S. to continue to taunt Russia and ignore the concerns of a fellow nuclear power. What the U.S. has done has encouraged Ukraine to poke the Russian bear, while knowing full well that it would never back it up militarily if anything happened. And that is exactly what is happening. Offensive weapons are currently being placed in Poland and Romania right now.

Change of subject. Strawman argument. What does anything you wrote above have to do with NATO promising Russia that it would not expand eastward? Here, let me help you - NOTHING.

Originally Posted by jgannon

Scholars like Stephen Cohen, Noam Chomsky, John Mearsheimer and government officials and former diplomats to Russia have all discussed what I am talking about.

I guess from your statement earlier regarding the "honest boy scouts," it's okay for me to attack people, right?

Noam Chomsky:

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/250chomskylies.pdf

How about a link where Stephen Cohen and John Mearsheimer prove that the US and NATO promised Russia not to expand eastward?

In the meantime, here's Mearsheimer:

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-conte...-Crisis-Is.pdf

"As the Cold War came to a close, Soviet leaders preferred that U.S.
forces remain in Europe and NATO stay intact, an arrangement they
thought would keep a reunifed Germany pacifed. But they and their
Russian successors did not want NATO to grow any larger and assumed
that Western diplomats understood their concerns. The Clinton administration evidently thought otherwise, and in the mid-1990s, it began pushing for NATO to expand."

Doesn't sound like he believes Russia was promised no eastward expansion by NATO.

Originally Posted by jgannon

Btw, Dore is an excellent source as he has on journalists like Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, Glenn Greenwald who also corroborate what I am saying here. Dore makes no pretense at being a scholar. But what he is an open, curious human being who is interested in seeking out truth. Pompously dismissing him is a mistake, in my opinion. As far as documents go, the consensus is that while nothing was signed, the promise was made regarding NATO. Clinton was also warned. In this article by FAIR (Fairness And Accuracy In Reporting) https://fair.org/home/calling-russia...-off-the-hook/ Clinton was warned that he was making a grave error:

Again, has nothing to do with your assertion that Russia was promised no eastward expansion.

The bottom line is Russia claims they were promised that NATO would not expand eastward. You believe that claim. Why? All you can do is cite other people with the same belief and say that confirms your belief. What evidence has been provided to you to make you believe the claim? That's all I'm asking for. Unless I see credible evidence that Russia was promised no eastward expansion by NATO, I have no reason to believe it.