PSA vs SGC...the definitive Debate!!!

[JohnP0621]

Peter,
I am glad that you respect my opinion as I respect yours and everyone elses. That is all that I gave was my opinion based on my experience with both parties .You can disagree with me because Its only my opinion and it does not mean anything. I am sure you have your reasons for liking SGC. I usually dont get involved in these debates because its like discussing politics. Collecting T206 is only a Hobby for me and I dont get to wrapped up in all the debates on whos a better grader or anything else. I just enjoy the hobby. If we all had the same experience we would not be having this debate. If I am unhappy with a service I just dont use that service any more. A lot of collectors complain about the service but keep using it.
I am not advocating using either or any grading company. I just have had a better experience with PSA and so thats who I prefer. I wouldnt mind going back to the old days with no graders but those days are long gone. I used to prefer to buy ungraded cards but it is hard to get an honest accessment on the cards grades from some dealers and these cards are expensive so I only buy graded ones now, so that I dont get ripped off. I dont think any of the grading companys are out to screw any of us. I just think that it is an unperfect service and that the grades will always be debatable.

Happpy Collecting
Regards
John P

[AndyG09]

If PSA cards sell for more when sold, aren't you paying more for them when bought? Not sure how this might be advantageous?

Best,

Andy

[ullmandds]

c'mon, Barry! I'd love to hear it!!!!

[GregMitch34]

Well, as Jeff Daniels says in the opening of "Newsroom" when pressed repeatedly about whether he is a Republican or a Democrat: "I am...a New York Jets fan."

[barrysloate]

I don't want to start rambling Peter, it's bad form. But when an 8 becomes a 9 the grading company is minting money. It's like the treasury printing hundred dollar bills. Nothing has been produced, it's just monopoly money. Is that good for the hobby? It's debatable.

But the money angle aside, grading is far too subjective and undefined for me. I would be a big supporter of it if it were really consistent among the major companies, and if it were done so precisely that one could rarely ever expect the grade to change upon resubmission. Then I would feel we've got something good. But how many times have you heard of people sending a card in three times and getting three different grades? Sorry, but it's not a system I have all that much faith in. But if I'm selling cards, which I don't do anymore, I'd get every one of them graded because the market dictates it. As a collector I wouldn't care one way or the other.

[ullmandds]

well...so far this poll is turning out the way i would have expected. as this site is more of a "hard core collector" site...I'd expect SGC to be preferred...as they are more accurate, more consistent...and have nicer holders.

If this were a vintage bb card "investment" forum...dominated by mainly collectors of the "popular" sets(T206, 33 goudey, 52 topps)...I'd expect PSA to dominate!

I agree w/Barry's sentiment...I just wished there was more uniformity... and more anonymity with the 3PGServices.

[Matthew H]

According to your statement Peter:

SGC collector= hard core

PSA collector= investor

Raw collector= ?

[ullmandds]

Matthew...I wouldn't say it is absolute...of course...but if the main reason to have PSA graded cards is for resale...make your own judgments!!!!

Raw collector = smartest collector as he/she can handle his/her cards and really learn about them!

[Rickyy]

This is just based on my own experience....PSA grading is more all over the map...I like SGC holders better in terms of aesthetics and also the cards don't float around loosely (I can't understand why PSA still can't fix that on some issues). I have had positive experiences with both in terms of customer service and PSA has done a better job of labeling the cards (I had to resubmit a few back to SGC for errors). SGC is also easier to make submissions to...without having to join a club and without having to label the cards etc...

If I had to choose between one or the other I guess I prefer SGC, but I don't dislike PSA.

Ricky Y

[Jason]

I say SGC.They havent let me down yet and they have great customer service in regards to submitting cards.Jason

[Jay Wolt]

PSA has graded over 19 million cards. It would be crazy to say that they are all in the hands of investors or registry people.
I like both PSA & SGC to collect (I'm on both registries) and for re-sale, I've had very few problems with either & I'm glad both are in the hobby.

[bbcard1]

I cast my vote for GAI. And also for Mrs. Howell.

(if you are under 50 you probably don't get it).

[bbsports]

My vote goes to PRO. With PRO you know what kind of cards their grading. With SGC & PSA, it's like buying a box of Cracker Jack. You never know what your going to get.

[Matthew80]

Couple of questions from a rookie:

1. Is it widely believed to be true that the name of the submitter can influence the grade?!

2. Are there any studies (reputable or otherwise) that have tested the popular claim that these companies grade inconsistently? It seems like it would be a great way to objectively identify which of the two is most consistent.

3. Is the experience and anticipation of waiting for a submitted card an enjoyable or scary one? In other words, do they tend to be too generous or picky? I'm not sure which way they lean, or if they're really all over the board.

Thanks in advance.

[bobbyw8469]

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades. I would definitely like to see scans of what you are talking about. Mutoscope is non-sports? 1940s?

SGC was consistent. Consistently bad. Mutoscopes are 1940's pin-up girls. I won a box of vending from one of the major auction houses. These cards looked brand new. I called Michael Goldberg and asked him about grading the entire set. I wanted to pay extra for the "My Divers Liscense" card as that is the money card and they had to custom make a gasket. The gaskets that they normally use don't fit the cards, and they just float around. I told Michael, that any 8's and above that I got, I wanted to pay extra for the custom gasket. When they were graded, and I asked Micahel how much extra I owed him, he laughed and said "nothing - none of your cards graded that high". I got mostly 4's-6's. The Diver's liscense card graded a '7' and looked more like and '8' or '9'.
When I got the cards back in hand, I looked them over and showed them to my girlfriend, who tolerates the hobby even though she is into other things. I showed her some of the 4's, and she laughed "How did this get a '4'? This looks brand new!?!?!" I stated, "My thoughts exactly" and proceeded to crack them all out of the cases. If I had left them in the cases with the incorrect grades, buyers woulda focused on the grades and not the cards, and I would've received peanuts for the cards. Instead, I sold them raw, got a decent amount, and the bidder who bought the majority of the cards shipped them off to PSA, where he proceeded to get 7's and 8's. I did call SGC for clarification and was told that there must have been "minute cracking/crazing" that can't be seen with the naked eye, and can only be seen with extreme magnification! WTF!?!?! That whole lesson cost me around $400-$500.

PS - I saved the scan of the "money card"

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm 100% with Clayton on this. Learn to grade your own cards. All of us go through a learning process when we get into vintage cards and memorabilia, so why not make grading your own cards as part of the process.

TPG does the hobby a great service by examining cards and weeding out the ones that are trimmed and altered. I'm sure that has saved collectors thousands of dollars. Assigning grades, on the other hand, is really not a useful service. First off, it's too subjective and the grade can be changed on a resubmission. Second, the various companies use different standards so cards will not always receive the same grades when crossed over. Finally, many collectors disagree with the grades anyway. Just too many variables for it to make any sense.

Collectors should grade their own cards, and the TPG's should just stick to authenticating and that's it. That has always been my position and I know you've seen me repeat it more than a few times.

Thanks Barry- I was hoping my post made sense

I also agree with everything you said. I think people's priorities will determine who likes what TPG better.....people who mostly only collect want consistency......people who mainly sell want whoever will give the highest grade *in some cases, even if it's not accurate.

My collection is like a big salad....SGC,BVG,PSA,and raw (sorry, no PRO ). I just want the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

[glynparson]

looks like an 84 to me. maybe an 86.

Originally Posted by glynparson

looks like an 84 to me. maybe an 86.

+1 and to add it sounds as though you sent them to SGC because you trusted that they would grade the cards accuratly, which they did using their grading scale, but are pissed they don't grade like PSA where they have a grading scale but is rarely used properly, if at all.

[bobbyw8469]

I sent to SGC because I thought they knew the issue and had a special going on. Apparently they were unfamiliar with the issue, because when you grade cards that look brand new as '4's, then something is wrong with that picture. PSA grading the same card as an '8' affirms that one of the two doesn't really know what they are doing. That is too wide of a swing. Me being a consumer, I tend to side with the company grading the card an '8'. If a vending card comes back a '4', there better be a surface wrinkle, white on all 4 corners, SOMETHING. Not an excuse like microscopic surface cracking that can only be seen under extreme magnificaton.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades.

I agree with this. Bobby, you may not have like the grades, but they were consistent. The Diver's License card does look better than the assigned grade. I agree with you there. However, none of us had the privilege to have the cards in hand so we really can't tell. SGC did and they saw something they didn't like.

Let me ask you this, Bobby. Would you rather have a card that, IN YOUR OPINION, was undergraded or would you rather have a card like this that is FOR A FACT overgraded?

[bobbyw8469]

David, PSA has something called a "Grade Guarantee". They are humans, same as the SGC graders grading mint vending box cards as 4's. The card you show was turned in for their "Grade Guarantee", reassigned the proper grade, and a check was cut for the monetary difference. Your disdain for PSA shows constantly, however, I can show you problems with BOTH graders. Let Big Chief rest.

[glynparson]

Agree 100%. SGC has made similar errors. In fact Id bet on percentage of cards graded the numbers are extremelly accurate.

[JohnP0621]

Regardless of who you like better. I think that both grading companys probably make a mistake on less than 1 out of every 100 cards. Both companys use humans to grade their cards . Sometimes I get a card graded and feel that it should have graded higher but other times I feel I got a better grade than the card deserves. But 99% of the time the grade is accurate. That happens with both graders. If you dont like the service dont use it. But grading is here to stay. So lets just move on to another subject.

John P

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I just want the card.

+1

[phikappapsi]

I like them both. In the Internet sales age, TPG companies a the best hedge we have in the hobby to guard against forgeries.

They both make mistakes, at a pretty similar rate, but on the whole they both do pretty good jobs. And they both do their best to rectify their problems when they have them.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Agree 100%. SGC has made similar errors. In fact Id bet on percentage of cards graded the numbers are extremelly accurate.

You may agree 100%, but you couldn't be any more wrong. Show me one SGC card with paper loss that is graded a 4 or higher. I can show you many PSA cards with paper loss that are graded a 4 or higher.

[whitehse]

Isnt this just a case of personal preference and to argue this issue is a moot point?

I dont understand the need to have this type of thread once a year when in the end it is only a personal choice of which TPG we all like and use (or dont use as the case may be).

[ullmandds]

DO NOT DIMINISH THE VALUE OF THIS POLL...the results will be definitive and FINAL!!!!! After the poll is over...and the results tabulated...there will be no reason to ever...ever discuss 3PG'raders!!!!!

Please Cooperate!

[glynparson]

Listen I worked there I saw buybacks come in all the time. You have no clue. particularly from the Joe Merkel era, they have many bad graded cards. I have seen the results you're just being a fanboy. There are many cards outside the centering standards, cards with writing, poorly trimmed cards with number grades, and yes they have even missed paper loss. I don't make it a point to collect scans so i don't have any, i collect cards. Trust me I personally like the guys at SGC much more than PSA but I don't think as a whole they've done any better than PSA despite the wishes and beliefs of some on this board. Just because Michael for years offered hand holding customer service, which many of you appreciated for good reason, does not make the graders any better. I have no more faith in Bob's abilities than anyones at PSA. I do think Scott is a better grader than anyone at PSA, including Reza, on a regular persons submission.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

David, PSA has something called a "Grade Guarantee". They are humans, same as the SGC graders grading mint vending box cards as 4's. The card you show was turned in for their "Grade Guarantee", reassigned the proper grade, and a check was cut for the monetary difference. Your disdain for PSA shows constantly, however, I can show you problems with BOTH graders. Let Big Chief rest.

I agree with Bobby on this one, I've purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders... Seller beware, I guess. Maybe you forgot to buddy up wih the graders. Next time bring pizza and beer.

I think SGC is too carefull with grades sometimes. The seller ends up losing our in these situations.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I agree with Bobby on this one, I've purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders... Seller beware, I guess. Maybe you forgot to buddy up wih the graders. Next time bring pizza and beer.

I think SGC is too carefull with grades sometimes. The seller ends up losing our in these situations.

I agree with Bobby on this one too. His card looks better than an 84. I also agree that I have purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders and yes, maybe it means SGC is being too carefull (conservative) with grades.

However, if you are a buyer, isn't that a good thing (wouldn't you want a better looking card for a better price) or am I missing something? That's why I buy SGC graded cards because I know there's a good chance that it was graded conservatively and the card may be nicer than it's PSA counterpart.

Then again, that's from a buyer's perspective. If I was a seller and wanted to get more bang for my buck, I would probably go with PSA because I know they're not going to grade as careful and the card will sell for more.

[teetwoohsix]

About missing paper loss.......how does a "grader" miss paper loss?!? I mean, does he look at the edges for 3 seconds and throw a grade on it? PAPER LOSS. Right there in his face. What the? I haven't seen that happen with SGC-maybe it has happened, but I haven't seen it.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I agree with Bobby on this one too. His card looks better than an 84. I also agree that I have purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders and yes, maybe it means SGC is being too carefull (conservative) with grades.

However, if you are a buyer, isn't that a good thing (wouldn't you want a better looking card for a better price) or am I missing something? That's why I buy SGC graded cards because I know there's a good chance that it was graded conservatively and the card may be nicer than it's PSA counterpart.

Then again, that's from a buyer's perspective. If I was a seller and wanted to get more bang for my buck, I would probably go with PSA because I know they're not going to grade as careful and the card will sell for more.

Sure, if your a buyer, but buyers are not the ones subbing cards. TPGs are for sellers trying to get max value for their cards. That's not going to happen with SGC. If I had to guess, they grade conservatively to keep buyers of cards from demanding they make good on their guarantee.

Why any sellers use their service is beyond me. To those who say the black make their card pop, hold a raw one in your hand and see how it pops then.

I've busted many SGC cards out and from experience, that black insert does more damage then good. I know all of you that have sgc cards have seen the card slip behind the insert. That insert is fairly sharp with sometimes somewhat jagged edges.

Oh and BTW, is that the Plank I sold you? I know the condition flaw it has but the grade is a bummer.

[CMIZ5290]

Matt- you are exactly right about the inserts with sgc holders. I have a few high end t206s (84's and higher) that have indentions (small lifts of the paper) on the back of the card, top and bottom, and the length of the indention is exactly the same width as the insert. It make me sick to my stomach because the cards are so extremely sharp other than that. What the hell am i suppose to do now??

[Matthew H]

I had an Obak in an SGC slab that wouldn't stay out from behind the insert, no matter how many times I tapped the edges to center it. After closer inspection, I realized the insert was actually a tiny bit smaller then the card itself, that's why I couldn't get it to sit right in the holder.

[glynparson]

The cases also often pop open without frosting when done in a certain way. I know this is a problem with PSA as well.

[oldjudge]

Bobbie--that card could have been at least a 9 if someone removed that rotten sign. Does you girlfriend ask why you bought a case of pinup cards?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Oh and BTW, is that the Plank I sold you? I know the condition flaw it has but the grade is a bummer.

Yup, that's the Plank. A good example of what I was talking about. It has all the eye appeal of a VG/EX card, but a low technical grade. I could really care less about the number on the front. I just want to be sure it's original and unaltered.

I think it should have graded higher as I'm sure you did too. And I think if I cracked it out and sent it to PSA it would grade higher (2.5 or 3). That's not a knock on PSA by saying they overgrade, I really believe it's undergraded. However, if it were a PSA 2.5 or 3, it would have cost me a lot more money. Same card, more money. Makes no sense. I just feel that by buying SGC graded cards I get a much better card (eye appeal) that is more conservatively graded for the money (and the Plank is a perfect example).

If I ever decide to sell it, I may crack it out and send it to PSA to see if I can get a higher grade. I don't think I would have anything to lose. But as for now I plan to keep it and don't really care about the holder that it resides in, just that it's the real deal as I mentioned.

Anyway, again that is from a buyers perspective. If I were a seller, I would probably go with PSA.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yup, that's the Plank. A good example of what I was talking about. It has all the eye appeal of a VG/EX card, but a low technical grade. I could really care less about the number on the front. I just want to be sure it's original and unaltered.

I think it should have graded higher as I'm sure you did too. And I think if I cracked it out and sent it to PSA it would grade higher (2.5 or 3). That's not a knock on PSA by saying they overgrade, I really believe it's undergraded. However, if it were a PSA 2.5 or 3, it would have cost me a lot more money. Same card, more money. Makes no sense. I just feel that by buying SGC graded cards I get a much better card (eye appeal) that is more conservatively graded for the money (and the Plank is a perfect example).

If I ever decide to sell it, I may crack it out and send it to PSA to see if I can get a higher grade. I don't think I would have anything to lose. But as for now I plan to keep it and don't really care about the holder that it resides in, just that it's the real deal as I mentioned.

Anyway, again that is from a buyers perspective. If I were a seller, I would probably go with PSA.

FWIW I sold it to you for what I bought it for. Pretty good deal. People ignored the card and couldn't get past the holder.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Does you girlfriend ask why you bought a case of pinup cards?

They ARE his girlfriend . BTW, because of the cracking Bobby mentioned there is no doubt in my mind they are technically graded correctly. Just because a card is in a 3-4 holder doesn't mean it will sell for an average 3-4 price. If I have a high-end-for-the-grade card I usually ask more than an average-for-the-grade card. It happens frequently with SGC cards as they do grade conservatively. As I just said in the M116 thread, I paid a premium for the SGC 40 Matty but it should go for more than a 4 because of the way it looks.




.
.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

FWIW I sold it to you for what I bought it for. Pretty good deal. People ignored the card and couldn't get past the holder.

I think there are times when grading a card can actually decrease the value rather than increase the value? If you were to have sold the same card raw with an accurate description and clear scans, would it have sold for more money (as opposed to someone not being able to get past the techincal grade on the slab)? I think maybe so.

[cobblove]

I will not buy a SGC card. I dont trust the case and I dont like OC cards.

[T206Collector]

There's a lot of "people grade cards and people make mistakes" comments in this thread. Sounds like PSA-apologists to me.

I am asking for just one -- one -- SGC graded card at 60 or higher with a visible crease.

Just

One

You can say SGC must make the same proportion of mistakes as PSA, but can you produce a single example of an SGC 60+ with a visible crease?

Try buying PSA 5s on the blind and see how long it takes you to find one. I just got this one a couple of weeks ago. Top left corner crease. Hard to see in a scan, but really easy to see in person. Probably an SGC 40. Oh well.

[glynparson]

like I said, but I can assure you they bought back high grade cards because of creases that were missed or pressed out and returned. PSA does allow for a wrinkle on a card up to a 6 so because there are different standards you can't really scream about it thats just a fact, like sgc allows for weaker corners on an average 5. Plus Paul have you ever seen anything negative from SGC you may be the biggest fanboy on here and if you are calling me a psa apologist also a fool. I have ripped PSA unmercifully at times but Im just sick of many on here criticizing PSA for things that SGC also does than applauding SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I were submitting a card and wanted the best assessment possible of authenticity and grade, I would choose SGC. If I were buying a card of unknown origin on the open market, I would lean slightly towards PSA, although I would be wary of both.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by glynparson

like I said, but I can assure you they bought back high grade cards because of creases that were missed or pressed out and returned. PSA does allow for a wrinkle on a card up to a 6 so because there are different standards you can't really scream about it thats just a fact, like sgc allows for weaker corners on an average 5. Plus Paul have you ever seen anything negative from SGC you may be the biggest fanboy on here and if you are calling me a psa apologist also a fool. I have ripped PSA unmercifully at times but Im just sick of many on here criticizing PSA for things that SGC also does than applauding SGC.

Fanboy? You mean SGC proponent? Sure, I may be the biggest SGC supporter on here. But what's my bias?

I have purchased 32 PSA 5 T206s since April for my mid-grade set. And it drives me crazy how much crap is currently for sale in a PSA 5 holder. I have to be a lot more careful with PSA than I am with SGC. That was my experience 10 years ago, when I began my first set, and that is my experience today as I work on a second.

2 stories.

I have a PSA 4 T205 Shulte pied 42 with 4 pin holes in it. One in each corner. An SGC 1 tops and I am fine with that. It would be accuratly graded then.

About 6 yrs ago I drove to whicita ks to buy a collection of new and vintage. He produced an unopened pack of 57 topps that I had him throw in to seal the deal. I busted the pack and pulled a Clemente that was mint. I sent it to sgc and it came back a 5. I resubmitted it for review thinking there is no way it is that and they put it in a graded bag and circled the upper left corner on the back where there was a slight spider crease or what I thought was a flaw in the cardstock. I sold the card for decent money though. What got me was the dealer that bought it submitted it to PSA and it now resides in a PSA 9 slab is what he told me. So how's that right? I could have did that also but would have felt like a thief had I sold it for 9 money. So if you sleep better at night using PSA over SGC that is fine but for me I prefer consistancy and integrity. I buy the card and not the holder anyways. Took me a while to learn but it was an easy choice after I learned my cards.

[glynparson]

Peter has made in my opinion the most accurate post of this entire thread.

Also Paul i will admit T206 does seem to be the set with the most PSA screw ups, and this may be part of the explanation for your vitriol, which I dont necessarily disagree with, I just have no more faith in SGC because of thier cronyism than PSA. If you look at some of the right places I think you'd be just as disgusted as many others have become.

[chaddurbin]

ignored this thread 'til now, cuz it's stupid, not sure if pete was serious starting this thread but...

i did have an sgc60 t206 young years back with the much worse corner crease than the carrigan. it bothered me so much because the card was jarred during shipping and shifted out of the black insert, so i wasn't sure if the shipping caused further damage. looking back at the auction scan i could see the wrinkling was there b4 being shipped. up until that point i also thought sgc don't allow crease/wrinkling in EX cards either.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

There's a lot of "people grade cards and people make mistakes" comments in this thread. Sounds like PSA-apologists to me.

I am asking for just one -- one -- SGC graded card at 60 or higher with a visible crease.

Just

One

You can say SGC must make the same proportion of mistakes as PSA, but can you produce a single example of an SGC 60+ with a visible crease?

[CMIZ5290]

Chad- glad you posted that. I also have a t206 sgc 70 mordecai brown (tolstoi) with a tiny, tiny crease at the bottom on the back of the card. The card looks like an 8, so in my mind, sgc hit the card a couple of grades because of that....