What would you do in this instance please

[forazzurri2axz]

Sold a T206 PSA 6 for 180.00; was paid via paypal and shipped with insurance

Buyer "M.S." said he did not receive it and after waiting a few more weeks, I refunded his money via paypal and put in a claim with USPS claims dept.

Got a letter this week from USPS denying my claim since "our records indicate the package was delivered as addressed" (address was correct)

Saw the card was in his registry AND VERIFIED WITH PSA REGISTRY DEPT.THAT IT'S THE SAME CERT # as the card sent!!!

Emailed M.S who said he's stunned that they denied my claim and he's going out of town but he'll be in touch next week (he has my phone # also)

Called paypal who said they only process disputes by the buyers!!!!!!!!!!

What would you do if it was your $$$$ in question???

thanks in advance
Bill

[teetwoohsix]

He's stunned they denied your claim but has the card in his registry?!?
Smells bad to me-sounds like he owes you the money and needs to make things right with you.

Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

for future reference use delilvery confirmation as well as insurance so you can track it yourself...

[AndyG09]

Good luck with this one Bill! Hope all is well with you otherwise.

Andy

[GrayGhost]

He sure does owe the money. Plus, he prob got a good deal on it, now, he is tip toeing around w a free card, and you have the PO not giving you your money back, and apparently correctly.

If this guy doesn't pay you for the card, I would make it a legal matter.

[celoknob]

I'm not sure I understand. The buyer received the card and is stunned that the USPS did not accept the claim ??? Then he "goes out of town" without resolving? If this is true, the guy is simply a crook. Was this an ebay transaction--most of us would want to avoid this person.

[smtjoy]

I would tell him he needs to pay for the card he has (the one entered into his PSA registry account) or you will turn him into the local police. I would then file a police report and talk to a post office rep about him claiming that the package was never delivered and the USPS said it was.

How did the USPS determine that he recieved the package? Did you send it with DS? If so I wonder why you refunded his money. I would not have refunded the money if my ds on an item I sent out showed it had been recieved. When I have filed a claim with the USPS and got paid I had a DS on the item and it was never delivered per the USPS.

[T206Collector]

...that USPS is still suspect, and...

...the buyer will tell you that he just added it to his PSA registry based on the scan of the card that you provided him.

[forazzurri2axz]

first of all, thanks so far for the responses---yes it was an ebay transaction . The last point is an excellent one in that he COULD say that he added the card to his registry based on the scan on ebay BUT it wasn't added until AFTER I refunded his money, believing that the card was truly lost in transit. Finally, in response to the above suggestion about delivery confirmation, I was told that USPS can "track" just the same if it is insured by the number/bar code on the insurance slip---I will double check this tomorrow at my PO ; I assume that's how the Claims Dept verified that the item was delivered to his address since I provided tham with the insurance receipt....

thanks again


by the way, do I call MY police dept or HIS? ..as per the above suggestion

[D. Bergin]

USPS has been very erratic lately. I don't know if it's cutbacks or what but I've had more issues in the past 6 months then I've had in the previous 10 years combined.

Matter of fact, I just had a Priority Mail envelope with Delivery Confirmation delivered to me today that actually belongs to a house down the street. I imagine their system says it was delivered to the proper household. I'll walk it down later on when I get the chance.

I anticipate another huge hike in their Insurance costs shortly, to cover for their recent losses, caused by their own shortcomings.

That said, being in this guys registry already is a little fishy I guess.

It IS amazing how many people in the past have claimed they didn't get a package and then when you spit the DC number back at them, they either disappear or claim their wife or kid had the package all along.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

I would tell him he needs to pay for the card he has (the one entered into his PSA registry account) or you will turn him into the local police.

I cannot comment on the local laws involved, but in many jurisdictions, it is an offence to try and collect a debt by threatening to call the police if the debt isn't paid.

Max

[Peter_Spaeth]

yes usps can track insured internally
but if you used delivery confirm, tracked it yourself and it showed as delivered when they guy claimed it wasn't, paypal would not have refunded -- unless he was claiming nonconforming goods in which case he would have had to return

[chris122868]

First of all i would give him one chance to make it right,and you did. Second i would file with USPS and you did. Third i would contact ebay. Fourth i would contact the police in your area/town AND FILE CHARGES. Fifth i would call his/her area/town and file charges there and see where that gets you. Then i would file with small claims court. Did he have good feed back and it would be nice if you would tell who he is and us net 54'ers can stick together and question/bother him about this situation. There is NOTHING worst than a THIEF/CROOK. It's nice to deal with GREAT people on this net 54 as when i sell something i KNOW i can ship it before i even get PAID. THANKS,CHRIS

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baseballart

I cannot comment on the local laws involved, but in many jurisdictions, it is an offence to try and collect a debt by threatening to call the police if the debt isn't paid.

Max

I am sure you are correct but that sounds crazy, Max.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There used to be a provision in the Model Code of Professional Responsibility for lawyers to that effect, but I believe it was withdrawn years ago.

[dstudeba]

I only use signature confirmation after I had 2 deals in one week go bad where the card never came but the seller showed me USPS delivery confirmation that I received it. I don't trust delivery confirmation at all.

[botn]

Originally Posted by chris122868

First of all i would give him one chance to make it right,and you did. Second i would file with USPS and you did. Third i would contact ebay. Fourth i would contact the police in your area/town AND FILE CHARGES. Fifth i would call his/her area/town and file charges there and see where that gets you. Then i would file with small claims court. Did he have good feed back and it would be nice if you would tell who he is and us net 54'ers can stick together and question/bother him about this situation. There is NOTHING worst than a THIEF/CROOK. It's nice to deal with GREAT people on this net 54 as when i sell something i KNOW i can ship it before i even get PAID. THANKS,CHRIS

Over $180?

This kind of stuff happened a lot less when sellers did not HAVE to accept paypal as a form of payment. Ah...the good ol' days of checks and money orders.

eBay strongly urges sellers to use some form of online delivery verification for this very reason. Live and learn.

[E93]

I would give him 48 hours to Paypal the money or file a police report and file a suit in small claims court. He could be on the hook for mail fraud, which is pretty serious. The lawyers here will know better than I.
JimB

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

I only use signature confirmation after I had 2 deals in one week go bad where the card never came but the seller showed me USPS delivery confirmation that I received it. I don't trust delivery confirmation at all.

You've got that right. All delivery confirmation says is that it was delivered "somewhere". Not necessarily to the address that it was intended for.

r/
Frank

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T's please

You've got that right. All delivery confirmation says is that it was delivered "somewhere". Not necessarily to the address that it was intended for.

r/
Frank

Doesn't matter if it protects you with ebay and paypal and I think it does.

[chris122868]

Over $180?

This kind of stuff happened a lot less when sellers did not HAVE to accept paypal as a form of payment. Ah...the good ol' days of checks and money orders.

eBay strongly urges sellers to use some form of online delivery verification for this very reason. Live and learn. ( SARCASIM)
Since this is only over $180.00 maybe you wouldn't mind paying him since it's not a big deal. CHRIS

[chris122868]

Sorry didn't know how to use quote !!!!! BOTN !!!!!!!!

[glchen]

These days you almost need to have signature confirmation these days from both sides , buyer and seller. I reently purchased a 1935 Goudey Ruth from ebay. USPS delivery confirmation said that the package was delivered to me. No package in my mailbox. The very next business day (a Monday), I just happened to bump into my postman as he was delivering the mail. I told him that I was missing a package, and asked if I could take a quick peak into the mail station to see if it was there. (It's a community mailbox that has something like 14 boxes there for the entire block.) And there was my package, in the mailbox right above the mine. So basically, the postman (and it wasn't my regular one) had put my package in the wrong mailbox. He told me that next time this happens, I should just call the local post office and tell them to track down my package. I'm kind of dubious about that.

I was particularly concerned because my address starts with 2202, and in the same mail station as my mailbox, another person also at 2202, but a different street, so I get the other person's mail all of time. And the thing here was that the other person's house was for sale, so for all I knew the person didn't even live there anymore, and wouldn't be checking their mail for a long time. And since USPS showed the package as delivered, I wouldn't have any recourse. So going forward, I think Signature Confirmation is the way to go on any expensive items.

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Doesn't matter if it protects you with ebay and paypal and I think it does.

Think again Peter. I mentioned this a couple months ago of a delivery that was intended for me. The seller had delivery confirmation and it showed that it was delivered. Problem was is that I had another package (delivery confirmation as well) that was delivered to me 4 minutes before the other package was delivered. I showed PayPal a copy of the delivery that I did in fact receive and filed a claim on the package that I didn't. Not sure if it was addressed correctly or if the USPS made a mistake. Either way I was given my refund although the seller had delivery confirmation.

r/
Frank

[Peter_Spaeth]

How is this for serendipity or whatever, in light of my prior post. My neighbor just rang my bell -- a package for me with delivery confirmation was delivered earlier today to his house instead of mine. My vitamins are now here safe and sound.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How is this for serendipity or whatever, in light of my prior post. My neighbor just rang my bell -- a package for me with delivery confirmation was delivered earlier today to his house instead of mine. My vitamins are now here safe and sound.

Vitamins. Sure.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How is this for serendipity or whatever, in light of my prior post. My neighbor just rang my bell -- a package for me with delivery confirmation was delivered earlier today to his house instead of mine. My vitamins are now here safe and sound.

Holy crap, do you live on my street.

[magic1313]

I am a little surprised about the lack of due diligence done prior to refunding the money. If it was me I would have been on the phone with the post office trying to track down the package before I gave the refund. I apologize if you did do the proper research before refunding the money but it sounds like you just took the buyers word for it. With all of the widespread issues with ebay and online scammers in general I find it a little unusual that you just took the sellers word. I hate to sound harsh but I don't think, realistically, there is not much you can do, except learn from the situation so you can prevent it from happening again.

[scooter729]

Bill,

Can you PM me the buyer's name? There was a person from a year or two ago who used a name related to "M.S." who got busted on here with a scam on a transaction I was involved in. If it's the same person by any chance, we can know for sure that it's a scam.

Scott

[Nap Rucker - The Southpaw]

I may have waited for him to take the initial action instead of giving him a refund. He should have filed a claim....then you could have presented your evidence that he has the card. I have never sold anything but have bought plenty with E-Bay and PayPal.

Bottom line.....its sad that this happened. If he's a crook then he'll get whats coming to him........sometime, someplace.

[hunterdutchess]

My friend when dealing with a crook you have to take bold steps.

1. Does he sell items on his account? If so I would threaten him with destroying all of his auctions and BIN'S.

2. Well thats about it, good luck getting your justice.

[RichardSimon]

Police reports (at least in NY and SF) have to be filed in person.
So file a report in your venue and you can then forward it to his police station.
I speak from experience in this matter.
--

[buymycards]

The Post Office always scans the black insured delivery label for insured packages under $200. You can purchase a return receipt for a couple of bucks. This is a postcard sized card that is attached to the package, and the package cannot be delivered without a signature. Another way to get a signature is to insure the package for $201 dollars, which costs a little more, but you always get a signature with the blue label insured parcels.

Rick

[Exhibitman]

It is extortion in CA to threaten to report someone to the cops if he doesn't pay.

I've been in this situation before for clients and have been told by my local PD that the best thing to do is file the report with your local PD and have them contact the PD in the crook's town. The foreign PD will accord a lot more respect to a fellow cop's inquiry than yours.

[lharri3600]

could not have said any better grayghost!!

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

He sure does owe the money. Plus, he prob got a good deal on it, now, he is tip toeing around w a free card, and you have the PO not giving you your money back, and apparently correctly.

If this guy doesn't pay you for the card, I would make it a legal matter.

[DICKTOWLE]

delilvery confirmation is the best always. Peter is correct, in fact we no longer insure- because you have to fight the US mail and prove value.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

I only use signature confirmation after I had 2 deals in one week go bad where the card never came but the seller showed me USPS delivery confirmation that I received it. I don't trust delivery confirmation at all.

Delivery confirmation doesn't mean squat. How does my item get scanned in at noon on Friday as delivered and then get delivered on Saturday? I will request signature confirmation on all high dollar items I win from here on out.

[iggyman]

Delivery confirmation is pretty much worthless from a buyers perspective. Just because the mail-person-dude scanned the package, does not mean he/she delivered it to the right address. From a sellers perspective its worth its weight in gold, only because it protects the sellers in a dispute with paypal (as long as the buyer does not get a credit card involved; if they do, then nothing can help you.......not even Johnny Cochrane (RIP).

Lovely Day...

[autograf]

Delivery Confirmation and Signature Confirmation do nothing if the package isn't delivered...........if there's no scan and no signature and it's not ALSO INSURED, no $$ back to you. Just remember that. Delivery Confirmation is only that...something to confirm delivery. It's great when it works which I'm sure is 99.9999% of the time. If you're that .00001 person, you're screwed if you don't have it insured. Same thing on Sig Confirmation.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Delivery confirmation is pretty much worthless from a buyers perspective. Just because the mail-person-dude scanned the package, does not mean he/she delivered it to the right address. From a sellers perspective its worth its weight in gold, only because it protects the sellers in a dispute with paypal (as long as the buyer does not get a credit card involved; if they do, then nothing can help you.......not even Johnny Cochrane (RIP).

Lovely Day...

Condolences to the Cochran family.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

delilvery confirmation is the best always. Peter is correct, in fact we no longer insure- because you have to fight the US mail and prove value.

I've filed 3 insurance claims in the last 5 years and never had to fight. I provided detailed information and was compensated quickly in all 3 occasions.

I send everything with at least DC and insurance, and anything over 200 with insurance and signature confirmation.

[Tsaiko]

Originally Posted by slantycouch

I've filed 3 insurance claims in the last 5 years and never had to fight. I provided detailed information and was compensated quickly in all 3 occasions.

I send everything with at least DC and insurance, and anything over 200 with insurance and signature confirmation.

Wow three claims in 5 years. I assume that this represents a small percentage of your overall packages? Like maybe 3%? Knock on wood, I've never lost a package, but only have mailed about 100 packages in the last six years.
All I ask for is a tracking number & DC, which I believe is no more than an illusion that I have some protection. Like one up from nothing.

I used to insure all packages of value, but my philosophy has changed since the recession. Rightly or wrongly, I believe that insurance alerts those who would steal, to a target of interest. The USPS in my area now have clerks walking the line to recommend insurance, which I find annoying.

Could you reveal what "detailed information" you had to provide to be compensated? Scans of what was in the package? I mean, how can you prove what was in the package? This has always bothered me about postal insurance, they can always say "prove it" and how can you do that unless you have a clerk sign off on what was in the package? And make a video of him doing it, lol. I also assume that these were packages that weren't delivered, right? Lost?
What about a recipient's allegation that there wasn't anything in the package? Surely there isn't insurance for that, or is there?

Since 9/11 clerks now ask what is in the package and sometimes ask why I don't want insurance and, when it's cards, I always say it's just some art work copies with no value.

I'd really like to be convinced that postal insurance is anything more than another uncle sam scam, then I would buy it. Up until your story, I've only heard how difficult/impossible it is to collect on an insurance claim from the USPS.

[slantycouch]

The 3 claims were not baseball card related but limited edition art prints shipped in tubes. Each claim was in the $200-300 range, and was paid within a week by the USPS.

I ship probably 100-150 such items each year, and of the 3 claims I filed, two were for damage, and one was for a lost package. I shipped them all via PayPal click-n-ship, so the records were already online. Just had to go to the form here: http://www.usps.com/insuranceclaims/domestic.htm and completed the necessary information.

All I had to do was describe what was in the package. For the lost package, no photos were necessary. They never asked for further proof beyond the info I provided. For the two that were damaged, I provided a single photo for each showing the damage.

For value, there's a site a lot like VCP for art. I just pulled the 6-mo average price off that site and used it for replacement value.

[Tsaiko]

Originally Posted by slantycouch

The 3 claims were not baseball card related but limited edition art prints shipped in tubes. Each claim was in the $200-300 range, and was paid within a week by the USPS.

I ship probably 100-150 such items each year, and of the 3 claims I filed, two were for damage, and one was for a lost package. I shipped them all via PayPal click-n-ship, so the records were already online. Just had to go to the form here: http://www.usps.com/insuranceclaims/domestic.htm and completed the necessary information.

All I had to do was describe what was in the package. For the lost package, no photos were necessary. They never asked for further proof beyond the info I provided. For the two that were damaged, I provided a single photo for each showing the damage.

For value, there's a site a lot like VCP for art. I just pulled the 6-mo average price off that site and used it for replacement value.

Thanks for providing the details of your claims, I appreciate it. Perhaps I'll be a little less cynical in the future, but these successful claim outcomes are still the minority in my experience. I guess it's a little easier to prove damage than value of loss, but I'm happy to hear that you had your claims settled to your satisfaction.

[barrysloate]

I've made a few claims with the post office over the years and never had a problem. Some were slow, others were resolved more quickly, and once I had my shipping costs reimbursed even though I didn't request it. But they always came through. I would never send anything of value without insurance.

[smtjoy]

I have also had 4 sucessful claims with the USPS over the last 5 years and all were paid to me within 90 days.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Where I'm from, that's theft and law enforcement should be involved. It's not a civil dispute if it happened the way it seems. Call your local enforcement for a report and then his also. Follow up with his local enforcement by sending them a copy of the police report.........

With all due respect Max, I don't see how it could be a crime as the scenario is now.

• tracking indicates it was delivered, then it was stolen from:
• the mailbox
• from the seller by the buyer via deception, etc

Also in reference to my jurisdiction, there is theft of lost property. If you're walking down the street, find a t206 and take it home, you will be charged with theft of lost property if you're caught with it because it's not your card. It should have been turned in. And believe me, it happens with other merchandise and people get caught.

I am selling some t206's now so please provide the buyer's user ID when you get a chance.

Also, if this happens again, force them to initiate a Paypal dispute. You should be covered because it showed delivered per USPS. It sound like the buyer was aware of this.

-Greg

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by Tsaiko

Thanks for providing the details of your claims, I appreciate it. Perhaps I'll be a little less cynical in the future, but these successful claim outcomes are still the minority in my experience. I guess it's a little easier to prove damage than value of loss, but I'm happy to hear that you had your claims settled to your satisfaction.

Sure thing!

Don't get me wrong... I was thoroughly surprised each time when the claims were paid swiftly. But I'm not going to complain!

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've made a few claims with the post office over the years and never had a problem. Some were slow, others were resolved more quickly, and once I had my shipping costs reimbursed even though I didn't request it. But they always came through. I would never send anything of value without insurance.

Couldn't agree with you more.