NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:49 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
Many top-10 lists look similar to this, with all 10 having played in the last 100 years yet only 1 (sometimes 2) has played in the last 50 years. Were ball players really that much better in the early-mid 20th century? Or do we tend to inflate the legacies those players left behind? In 50 years from now, will Maddux and Clemens and Pedro and Randy Johnson and Arod sneak into these lists? Or have we been watching bad baseball the past 50 years?

sorry to get off-topic, just making an observation
I think on a prewar card board there is going to be a lot of nostalgia inflation.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:53 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:54 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,720
Default

I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit, but that may be because of some early memories being burned into me for life.

I recall 1966 as a very young boy, and what he did to the American League that year seemed unearthly. I was starting to get into my hometown Twins, and my favorite player on that team, Tony Oliva, who had just won the AL batting crown his first two seasons. Frank Robinson beat him by 9 points, and I don't remember it being that close, although they were the only two (I think) to hit .300. The local slugger Killebrew finished second to Robby in HR-- ten behind. As it turned out, Robby not only won the triple crown, he led the league in runs scored by 23 and in slugging pct by 99 points! He then won World Series MVP by beating Drysdale twice and going 1 for 2 (triple) off of Koufax in the four-game sweep. Just truly seemed like he was in a league of his own.

He also was a very underrated baserunner and a smart player overall. I wonder if he lacked a bit of popularity because he split his career about evenly in each league at a time when each had its own devoted fans that didn't fully appreciate what he had done in the other circuit because they didn't follow it as closely. Anyway, he has always been one of my favorite players, although begrudgingly so when he beat my guys back in the day.
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.

Last edited by nolemmings; 07-20-2018 at 01:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:55 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
trivia quiz

what has frank robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-wwii era ?


ted z

t206 reference
.
mvp - al/nl ?!?
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:00 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mark

Your answer is a good one, but it's not quite the one I'm looking for.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:04 PM
icollectDCsports's Avatar
icollectDCsports icollectDCsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolemmings View Post
I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit. . ..
Totally agree.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:05 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,874
Default Frank Robinson

I believe F. Robby is under appreciated, undervalued and doesn’t get the credit he likely deserves is because of his personality sometimes hits people the wrong way. Now I’m an O’s fan and Frank is one of my favorite players and each time I met him he was extremely nice to me, but I heard some horror stories from others.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:07 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

He wouldn't even look at people when he was the Nationals manager. I remember being at spring training in 2005 during their inaugural season. The only reason anyone had to be there was him. He blew everyone off like it didn't matter if a new franchise had fans.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:19 PM
Paul S Paul S is offline
P. Sp.ec.tor
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Landlocked by High Toll Fees
Posts: 2,150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
First African American manager in both leagues?
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:19 PM
Paul S Paul S is offline
P. Sp.ec.tor
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Landlocked by High Toll Fees
Posts: 2,150
Default

double post

Last edited by Paul S; 07-20-2018 at 02:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #261  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:20 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Mark

Your answer is a good one, but it's not quite the one I'm looking for.
Last guess... How about Frank won the Triple Crown, the Most Valuable Player trophy and a World Series ring in his first year?!?
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:59 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark70Z View Post
Last guess... How about Frank won the Triple Crown, the Most Valuable Player trophy and a World Series ring in his first year?!?
1966 was not exactly his first year...
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:33 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
1966 was not exactly his first year...
Ha! First year switching to the AL (left something out...)
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:34 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark70Z View Post
Ha! First year switching to the AL (left something out...)
One of the best, or worst, trades in history depending on your perspective.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mark70Z

Your response in post #254 here serves as a hint to the answer to this Quiz.
.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:00 PM
JollyElm's Avatar
JollyElm JollyElm is online now
D@rrΣn Hu.ghΣs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7,331
Default

Who is a person who has never been in my kitchen?
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land

https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm

Looking to trade? Here's my bucket:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706

“I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.”
Casey Stengel

Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s.

Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:29 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_spaeth View Post
one of the best, or worst, trades in history depending on your perspective.
best! 😃
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:25 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Mark70Z

Your response in post #254 here serves as a hint to the answer to this Quiz.
.
ROY MVP and WS MVP.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:47 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
ROY MVP and WS MVP.
Don't think that's what he's looking for---see Johnny Bench.
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:30 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolemmings View Post
Don't think that's what he's looking for---see Johnny Bench.
Oh yeah I forgot he was ROY duh.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:35 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Something to do with what he did in both leagues then. Well, he was a 6 time all star selection in each. Had over 1000 hits in each (probably not unique there, Griffey). Did he hit 250 HR in the AL, I am sure he did it in the NL? And I doubt Griffey got to 250 in the NL.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-20-2018 at 09:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:46 PM
Section103's Avatar
Section103 Section103 is offline
Rich v@n He$$
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denver-ish
Posts: 714
Default

Whether he belongs or not, I find it troublesome that one could be making his way in or out of a status some 46 years after their death. I get the need for time to pass to truly reflect on a total playing career and how it compares historically (although some wouldnt even agree with that suggestion); but beyond some point in time it seems like lore and revisionist history start to take over.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 07-20-2018, 11:34 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
Many top-10 lists look similar to this, with all 10 having played in the last 100 years yet only 1 (sometimes 2) has played in the last 50 years. Were ball players really that much better in the early-mid 20th century? Or do we tend to inflate the legacies those players left behind? In 50 years from now, will Maddux and Clemens and Pedro and Randy Johnson and Arod sneak into these lists? Or have we been watching bad baseball the past 50 years?

sorry to get off-topic, just making an observation
No, it's ok. Interesting point. I've noticed it, too.

After my list I had that point about guys I seriously considered for the top ten list.

Cy Young is really hard to keep off, but I'd like to have seen him pitch in the live ball era.

Eddie Collins is just outside my top ten.

Two of the modern era guys I struggled to keep off were Mike Schmidt and Johnny Bench. Bench doesn't have the WAR of the others, but he's one of those guys where I don't feel the numbers tell the whole story. I just can't help but feel they're low.

Consider his 1970 season. '70 was a bit of an outlier for the National League-4.52 runs were scored per game; league average for the six years before and after were 3.91 and 4.04, respectively. So Bench's offensive numbers appear a tick more impressive than they would have in any of those other 12 seasons.

He played 158 games (139 as a catcher), hit .293, scored 97 runs, had 35 doubles, 4 triples, 45 home runs, 148 RBI, 355 total bases, and slashed .345/.587/.932, good for a 141 OPS +.

He was an All Star, won the Gold Glove (1.8 dWAR), and NL MVP. Yet, that's only worth 7.4 WAR (per BBR)?

How many catchers not named Mike Piazza get 84 extra base hits in a season? Oh wait, Piazza's best was 73 XBH.

In 219 PAs with runners in scoring position, Bench hit .318 with 104 RBI and a 1.071 OPS. That's insane! He had a .990 OPS with men on. .319 with a .995 OPS in high leverage situations. .304 with a .970 OPS in medium leverage situations.

And he was only worth 7.4 wins? I also feel his 1972 season, where he's awarded an 8.6 WAR, is low. His average was lower-.270-but, he walked 100 times. He hit 40 home runs, drove in 125. Slashed .379/.541/.920. His OPS + is 166. All Star, Gold Glove and MVP again.

Joe Morgan is another I have a hard time keeping off. First off, the guy was a walking machine. 1,865 free passes in his career. He hit .271 career, and when he swung the bat, he could mash. Remember, that's an era of low scoring. Between '72 and '76, Morgan hit .303, averaged 113 runs scored, 22 home runs, 85 RBI, 62 stolen bases, 118 walks, slashing .431/.499/.930 with a 163 OPS+. That's his actual averages, not 162 game averages. And, he averaged 9.6 WAR per season for those five years. He had five other All Star caliber seasons outside that five year period (that being WAR of 5+), but during that half decade, he was historically good with WARs of 9.3, 9.3, 8.6, 11.0, and 9.6.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:30 AM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Oh yeah I forgot he was ROY duh.
See also, Pete Rose
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:50 AM
hedgefund96's Avatar
hedgefund96 hedgefund96 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolemmings View Post
See also, Pete Rose
If we had a boy I would have LOVED him to have the drive and determination that Pete had. He always ran out walks and homeruns...
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:53 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,297
Default

Running out walks and home runs is self-aggrandizing. Pete to a "T." It screams "look at me." Taking the extra base, advancing on pop flies, hustling in the field means something, the rest of it is for show.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:59 AM
Edward Edward is offline
Ed I.vey
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 58
Default

Clemente's death, and circumstances surrounding, elevated his standing beyond statistical delineation.
Apart from that, I was 8 and had a Clemente 73 Topps and thought I was special.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:10 AM
obcbobd obcbobd is offline
Bob Donaldson
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered.
Yes, but Clemente played a lot less games per year. Robinson should get credit for taking the field more often.

That said as a nine year old baseball fan in 1971, what Clemente did in the 1971 WS (hitting, running, fielding and of course his arm) and how he did it (duende) was simply amazing. After that he was one of my favorites
__________________
My wantlist http://www.oldbaseball.com/wantlists...tag=bdonaldson
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:36 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z


I will continue this Trivia Quiz regarding Frank Robby till this evening....or, until some one has the answer I am looking for.


In the early 1970's, we would drive down to Bradenton (Florida) to visit my in-laws. My wife's Grandfather, Chris, had tickets to the Pirates' Spring training games at Bradenton. In 1972,
our seats were near the field, midway between 1st base and the Foul pole. When Roberto came out to Right field, he would first come over to the stands and converse with many of us.
He was such a really friendly guy. And, it was a pleasure to see him play at close range.... fielding his position and making some great throws to cut-off runners.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-21-2018 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #281  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:19 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Mark McGwire.
Vlad Guerrero.
Randy Johnson.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-21-2018 at 07:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:53 PM
howard38 howard38 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 635
Default

[QUL="htt
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872

Last edited by howard38; 09-10-2020 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:26 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,297
Default

Jim Bunning for my money. But Randy Johnson certainly could make a claim. Also one could be a wise guy and pick anyone who had similar bad statistics in both leagues. That would technically fill the criterion of equal success in both leagues, even if it was "none"
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions

Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 07-21-2018 at 08:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:33 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Gaylord Perry
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Mark McGwire.
Vlad Guerrero.
Randy Johnson.
Peter

Vlad Guerrero is certainly a good choice.

I would have included Mark McGwire in this "elite club", but for his PED problem.

I forgot to qualify that I was referring only to "BB players" (and not pitchers).
I guess this was implied by the example of Frank Robinson. Anyhow, I should
have been more specific. Sorry about this....my bad.

Of course....Randy Johnson would certainly be in a Pitcher's "elite club". Along
with Jim Bunning, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-21-2018 at 09:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 07-22-2018, 01:25 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
He's in year 11, not 15, but Max Scherzer. Led AL in wins twice and won a Cy Young. Switched to the NL and has now won two Cy Youngs in the NL.
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 07-22-2018, 01:34 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
He was an All Star, won the Gold Glove (1.8 dWAR), and NL MVP. Yet, that's only worth 7.4 WAR (per BBR)?

How many catchers not named Mike Piazza get 84 extra base hits in a season? Oh wait, Piazza's best was 73 XBH.

In 219 PAs with runners in scoring position, Bench hit .318 with 104 RBI and a 1.071 OPS. That's insane! He had a .990 OPS with men on. .319 with a .995 OPS in high leverage situations. .304 with a .970 OPS in medium leverage situations.

And he was only worth 7.4 wins? I also feel his 1972 season, where he's awarded an 8.6 WAR, is low. His average was lower-.270-but, he walked 100 times. He hit 40 home runs, drove in 125. Slashed .379/.541/.920. His OPS + is 166. All Star, Gold Glove and MVP again.

Joe Morgan is another I have a hard time keeping off. First off, the guy was a walking machine. 1,865 free passes in his career. He hit .271 career, and when he swung the bat, he could mash. Remember, that's an era of low scoring. Between '72 and '76, Morgan hit .303, averaged 113 runs scored, 22 home runs, 85 RBI, 62 stolen bases, 118 walks, slashing .431/.499/.930 with a 163 OPS+. That's his actual averages, not 162 game averages. And, he averaged 9.6 WAR per season for those five years. He had five other All Star caliber seasons outside that five year period (that being WAR of 5+), but during that half decade, he was historically good with WARs of 9.3, 9.3, 8.6, 11.0, and 9.6.
This is the problem I have with WAR. The numbers seem so completely random at times. And there are some guys that seem to just tick all the right boxes for WAR and end up with a number that doesn't pass the smell test. To use a guy mentioned earlier in this thread - Gene Tenace in 1974 hit .211 with an OPS of .775. WAR of 5.0. Really?

Joe Morgan was a great player - for about 5 years anyway - and WAR just loves him. He ticks all the right boxes. But a WAR of 11.0 in 1975? OK. But then he goes out and improves in 1976 and his WAR *drops* to 9.6. Sure thing.
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 07-22-2018, 08:46 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Pitching WAR is weird too. Fangraphs has Trevor Bauer as the best pitcher in baseball, even though (for example) his BABIP against is higher than the rest of the top 10. It also ranks Jon Gray with an ERA of 5.5 as the 12th best pitcher.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-22-2018 at 08:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:47 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
This is the problem I have with WAR. The numbers seem so completely random at times. And there are some guys that seem to just tick all the right boxes for WAR and end up with a number that doesn't pass the smell test. To use a guy mentioned earlier in this thread - Gene Tenace in 1974 hit .211 with an OPS of .775. WAR of 5.0. Really?

Joe Morgan was a great player - for about 5 years anyway - and WAR just loves him. He ticks all the right boxes. But a WAR of 11.0 in 1975? OK. But then he goes out and improves in 1976 and his WAR *drops* to 9.6. Sure thing.
Agree with everything you just said.

The variance in his WAR between 1975 and 1976 appears due to defensive regression. He went from a 2.0 dWAR to a 0.4. But he won the Gold Glove both years, so the guys watching the games didn't see a precipitous drop off in his defense.

Sometimes I love WAR, but sometimes I hate it. I don't think there's ever been a more divisive metric in baseball. It's great for comparing players within one era, but I find it maddeningly (is that even a word?) flawed when you compare players from even one generation apart. And the defensive component of it....let me just say I don't get it, and I'll walk away.

The very fact that WAR is computed differently by BBR and Fangraphs only adds to my nervous tick. When it comes to statistical analysis, I'm a very precise guy (shocking, right?). I don't like that I have to qualify which site I'm taking my information from when entering into a discussion. The talking heads at BBR and Fangraphs need to lock themselves in a room, agree upon one formula, and then blow smoke for the world to see, like when the Pope has been named by the College of Cardinals.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:54 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Though his stay in the second league (the NL) was brief because of when he switched in his career, I think it's safe to say Roy Halladay had real success in both leagues. He won a Cy Young, then finished 2nd, 3rd, and 5th place twice in other seasons. He moved to the NL with the Phillies, and didn't miss a beat. Won the 2010 Cy Young, and finished second the next season.

From 2002 to 2011, he was about as good as you could get in baseball. 170-75, 2.94 ERA (with an impressive 148 ERA+), 63 complete games, 18 shut outs, 1,699 Ks against 372 BBs in 2,194 IP. Not a large post season resume, but a 2.37 ERA across 5 starts including only the second no hitter in playoff history, plus a perfect game....2 Cy Youngs.

He should get serious consideration for the Hall.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:43 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
The very fact that WAR is computed differently by BBR and Fangraphs only adds to my nervous tick. When it comes to statistical analysis, I'm a very precise guy (shocking, right?). I don't like that I have to qualify which site I'm taking my information from when entering into a discussion. The talking heads at BBR and Fangraphs need to lock themselves in a room, agree upon one formula, and then blow smoke for the world to see, like when the Pope has been named by the College of Cardinals.
Computed differently and essentially in secret. You can't just punch in some numbers and check their work.
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:14 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cammb View Post
Didn't he have a couple of no hitters with all of those ks.
Seven of them, plus a lifetime opponent's BA of .203. Those Angel teams he played on were really pretty bad. Only he and Bob Feller could get away with walking that many batters and perform as they did--that takes "stuff" in spades.

Hi guys,

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:31 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.
+1 in all respects, Ted.

Always good to hear from you,

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:37 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Do you imagine then guys like Ron Kittle, Dave Kingman, Mickey Tettleton etc are cursing that they were born a generation or two too soon?
Don't forget Rob Deer.

Best wishes,

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:38 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Gallo already has struck out more than DiMaggio did in his career. In just 291 games.
I truly enjoy watching Joey Gallo strike out.

Hi again, Pete,

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:02 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Computed differently and essentially in secret. You can't just punch in some numbers and check their work.
And it makes me nuts!
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:04 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ls7plus View Post
Don't forget Rob Deer.

Best wishes,

Larry
Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
Or, Rob Deer. The Brewers always had one of those guys when I was growing up. Gorman Thomas was the first. Nobody in baseball had more homers than Stormin' Gorman's 175 between 1978 and 1982. But he had a 27.5% K rate (and 28.6% for his career). I'll never understand how he could play center field. He wasn't exactly swift of foot. He looked like a weekend softball player. BBR lists him at 6'2" 210 lbs. I think that second number was being a little generous. Deer stepped in when Gorman left town. 215 home runs between '86 and '93 for Milwaukee, and a few years in Detroit. He also K'd 1,298 times in 3,645 ABs-a whopping 35.6%.
I watched Deer whiff many times before leaving for Texas.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 07-25-2018, 11:52 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
And it makes me nuts!
Add it to the long list of things, right?
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 07-30-2018, 02:09 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Add it to the long list of things, right?
Hey now! I'm nuts in a fun way, not a "get the straight jacket, Uncle Wilbur is playing Duck Duck Goose with his imaginary friends again" way.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT sort of--The Post Office is the 9th Circle of Hell Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 18 08-13-2006 09:18 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:25 AM.


ebay GSB