Hopkins Brothers J.L Wilkerson Postcard --Price Explosion??

[Jason19th]

Sorry I cannot post a scan but if you look at the old cardboard rookie card database for Wilkerson (owner of the KC Monarchs) you will see which card I am talking about

For years this card has been available for $40-50 on ebay and I have always questioned the certainty of the Wilkerson id but in the last couple of months one has sold in Goodwin for 700 and just sold on ebay for 512.

Are these blips or should I be selling


Any thoughts

[h2oya311]

Given that this is his only known career contemporary card, every HOF collector needs one. I have picked up two in the past year for <$100 on eBay, but he wasn't identified in either listing. I plan on selling one and can only hope I get the prices you quoted!!!

Perhaps the SGC slab helped in the Goodwin sale!!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Significant, vintage Negro League Baseball memorabilia is on the upswing all the way around, thanks in no small part to the recent auctioning of the Richard Merkin collection through Hake's over the past three years. I don't think you'll see those postcards going for under $100 on e-bay (or anywhere else) any more unless the seller butchers the listing (misspellings/wrong category/etc). That being said, Goodwin ALWAYS gets very high prices and the e-bay seller of this example of the postcard (along with many others) is probably about the equivalent of Henry Yee selling baseball photos on e-bay, minus the consignment part of it. Dan Yaw is very highly regarded in the vintage baseball postcard market.

[slidekellyslide]

I knew I should have stocked up on that card before making my discovery known.

They are not rare, and it wasn't that long ago (maybe 3 or 4 months back) that I saw one sell for less than $50 on ebay.

[slidekellyslide]

Here is one that sold for only $7.00 just a few weeks ago...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hopkins-Bros...item41732c59d3

and another one for $70

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-Hopkins...item5d3def7776

I don't see the one that Jason referenced above for $512. Anyway this postcard is really easy to find...a little patience can save you a whole lot of money if you need this for your collection.

[Jaybird]

Not to mention the fact that it's not even Wilkinson.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Not to mention the fact that it's not even Wilkinson.

And you know this how?

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

And you know this how?

Hey Dan, Sorry if that came across as snipy. DIdn't mean to be. I have never thought anyone on the postcard even looked remotely like Wilkinson. And while Wilkinson did manage a team that was sponsored by Hopkins Brothers Sporting Goods, how do we know it was this team? The team he put together was broken up some time in 1908-1909. I also think there is some evidence to believe the team he had with Hopkins Bros was a male team. He broke that up and started a Bloomer Girls team which I think adds to the confusion.

You will see Hopkins Brothers teams in newspaper articles all the way into the 1950s and even sponsored other sports (bowling, etc.) so I don't see a reason to tie this team to him directly. But if there is evidence to the contrary other than someone thinking it looks like him (which I do not), then I'm certainly open to the possibility.

I'll update my post with some newspaper articles when I get a minute.

[slidekellyslide]

No problem...I'm all about education, but you did say "Fact" which made me believe you had evidence to the contrary.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Please see below link to SABR article on J. L. Wilkinson. The main point that seals the deal for Dan B. in my eyes is the mention that Wilkinson kept three male players on an otherwise all-female team and if you look at the postcard, there are three male players pictured. Too much of a coincidence for me. As far as facial resemblance, I won't comment on that one way or the other as it is not a real photo postcard but a commercially printed one and the image is not clear enough to make a determination. I also don't know if we have another image of Wilkinson dating to the 1908-10 time period that we could compare it to.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/db4ae51d

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

No problem...I'm all about education, but you did say "Fact" which made me believe you had evidence to the contrary.

True. Bad turn of phrase. I'll get some facts and then present. I just haven't seen facts to confirm it and yet it's printed on slabs and reported as fact. That perpetuates the ID and over time becomes accepted.

[Jaybird]

I'll use this post to try and get a case together. Sometimes proving a negative is harder than proving a positive and I feel that the burden of saying this is Wilkinson should be on the people that are claiming it. Especially since I don't think it even looks like him. But, that being said, I'll do what I can.

In August 12, 1909 edition of the Humbolt Independent (Humboldt, Iowa), here's an article that seems to be talking about Hopkins Bros men's team. There is no mention of women and there would be if it was a novelty (which it was). Also no mention of Wilkinson. So we might assume that Wilkinson was gone by this time? I think it would be useful to try and get all of the Hopkins Bros Lady postcards that have postmarks to try and narrow down the dating of them.



I'm going to try and find a paper with Wilkinson managing the ladies team and get a date for that. But I still don't think that will prove anything. Even if I find an article with him managing the ladies team during the right time frame, that doesn't automatically put him in the picture.

Here's something interesting. They call the manager "Buster" Wilkinson. Also saying he was managing the Des Moines team and then is going to start managing the Ladies Road Team. So, that to me means that he coached both. Also puts a narrow window on his time with the Bloomer Team. April 20th, Summer of 1909. Still need to date the postcard.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I'll use this post to try and get a case together. Sometimes proving a negative is harder than proving a positive and I feel that the burden of saying this is Wilkinson should be on the people that are claiming it. Especially since I don't think it even looks like him. But, that being said, I'll do what I can.

In August 12, 1909 edition of the Humbolt Independent (Humboldt, Iowa), here's an article that seems to be talking about Hopkins Bros men's team. There is no mention of women and there would be if it was a novelty (which it was). Also no mention of Wilkinson. So we might assume that Wilkinson was gone by this time? I think it would be useful to try and get all of the Hopkins Bros Lady postcards that have postmarks to try and narrow down the dating of them.



I'm going to try and find a paper with Wilkinson managing the ladies team and get a date for that. But I still don't think that will prove anything. Even if I find an article with him managing the ladies team during the right time frame, that doesn't automatically put him in the picture.

I actually think it does resemble him, but it's impossible I believe to photo match from this postcard...the guy in the postcard even wears a hat with an unusual brim that is similar to a hat he wears in one of the Monarch team photos...not many men were wearing that style of hat in the early 20th century....I don't have the links anymore to the articles I found that put Wilkinson in charge of a ladies team, but I do recall that they specifically mentioned he was managing a ladies ball team for Hopkins Bros, a sporting goods store that he worked for in Des Moines, IA...he later abandoned that team for his All Nations team.

Also strangely enough in the 20 or so copies of this postcard I have never seen one that is postmarked, which I think is very unusual.

All of this is simply circumstantial, but that said I strongly believe the man in the Hopkins postcard is Wilkinson.

[Jason19th]

My card is postmarked June 17 1910

[slidekellyslide]

Have you seen any others that are postmarked? It'd be nice to find one that is postmarked where the sender actually wrote something about the game on it. I have quite a few Nebraska Indians postcards that have notes on the game written on them.

[Jaybird]

Dan, we'll just agree to disagree on the ID but I'm glad we have a place to discuss it. If I dig up more info, I'll post it here.

[bmarlowe1]

I'm fairly sure I have commented on this one before, but in any case I'm happy to do it again. Below left is a photo of young J.L. Wilkinson in a baseball cap. Below center is a c1910 photo of Wilkinson courtesy of the family. Below right is the image in question.

Though the head angle is a bit different than the others, it very much seems that the nose isn't right (the real Wilkinson has a wide nose with prominent wide nostrils). Also we can make out a deep philtrum in the image in question, in spite of poor image quality, that causes an apparent downward indentation in the upper lip. The real Wilkinson lacks this feature. The ear shape also doesn't seem right. In my view people should not be spending good money on this item based on the hope Wilkinson is present.

[slidekellyslide]

I still think there is enough resemblance and not enough difference...coupled with the history of the team and Wilkinson. But I agree that people should not be spending a huge amount on this postcard...mainly because it's easy to find.

[bmarlowe1]

Dan - given the image quality I've carried the analysis as far as I can. Beyond that I can only give my subjective opinion - I don't see any resemblance. They look like 2 different people to me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Just curious if anyone read my post (#10)..........

[slidekellyslide]

I read it Phil. I just think the info is all there...and I do think there is resemblance...the facial shape is the same, can't tell anything about the nose and ears, but if you look you can see that the circular inner part of the ear matches on the right ear in Mark's photo of him with the circular inner part of the ear on the left ear in the postcard...the amount of space from nose to lip is the same. There doesn't seem to be many photos of Wilkinson out there so you can't find anything that has the same angle which you need to do a good facial recognition comparison.

Also no one has come up with any links to anything about anyone else ever managing the Hopkins lady team other than Wilkinson.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Just curious if anyone read my post (#10)..........

I very much did read it. That's exacly why I posted contemporary images of him. Nothing you said accounts for the facial feature differences I pointed out, differences that are not apparent in any other verified image of Wilkinson. Face angle has no relevance here to the mouth comparison, and little for the nose comparison.

In the center image above, Wilkinson's right ear (viewer's left) is seen to have a detached earlobe. For the face in question, which is turned somewhat to the opposite direction, his ear appears to have an attached earlobe - not conclusive given the quality of the image, but not a good sign. While head angle can affect this to some degree, the angle of his ear with respect to his head doesn't appear to match Wilkinson (in young and old man photos). There are just too many little things wrong that add up to it not being him.

What I am saying about the mouth is clarified below: