the list (of criminals) is revealed

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, Dave Forman is the owner of SGC, he may also be President but I am not sure. He and his brother Steve are identified on the list in several places.

ADDED I have not looked up the lots so I don't know the answer to the second part of your question.

Yes it looks like they shilled each other's lots right and left. I welcome a response.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bunst

Has this been answered? It's a long thread so I may have missed it.

Yes, according to the document, Dave Forman (SGC owner) and his brother Steve Forman shilled each other's auctions on many occasions, including high grade SGC cards. The example below was consigned by Dave, shilled by Steve, and actually won by Steve... looks like he got stuck with it.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70524

Here's one that was consigned by Steve, and shilled by Dave, and won by Greg Bussineau.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=74170

There are many, many other examples.


JEFF PR|ZNER

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Yes, according to the document, Dave Forman (SGC owner) and his brother Steve Forman shilled each other's auctions on many occasions, including high grade SGC cards. The example below was consigned by Dave, shilled by Steve, and actually won by Steve... looks like he got stuck with it.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70524

Here's one that was consigned by Steve, and shilled by Dave, and won by Greg Bussineau.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=74170

There are many, many other examples.


JEFF PR|ZNER

Who's the real hobby villian...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951

[MattyC]

And here I was, utterly oblivious to the fact that SGC really stands for:

"Shill, Get Cash."

Thank God baseball cards are such happy and pure things, in and of themselves, that the enjoyment they bring trumps and outshines that odious list.

[Iron Horse]

Seems to me that SGC should pack it up.
How can a grading company not only grade their own cards (likely over grade) then list them in auction and the shill their own lots.
It's bad enough when an individual does it but a grading company????
Ruben Baghdassarian

[Dpeck100]

And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.

SGC has less then 3%.

If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess.

How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding.

Haha

You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed.

If I had a large amount of funds tied up in SGC cards this would make me sick to my stomach.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Seems to me that SGC should pack it up.
How can a grading company not only grade their own cards (likely over grade) then list them in auction and the shill their own lots.
It's bad enough when an individual does it but a grading company????

+1 Agreed! I am not sure why but I feel 100x worse knowing that the head of a TPG would do this. Auctioneers are like mechanics...I try to find the ones who will rip you off the least, but the heads of SGC?!?! pretty ridiculous.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.

SGC has less then 3%.

If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess.

How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding.

Haha

You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed.

Yeah there seems to be a huge conflict of interest.........who is ready to argue with me again that SGC are worth the same as PSA for the exact same card in same numerical holder.....still not sure on B/S/T people ask and wont sell unless get a PSA 4 price for a SGC 4 card with all things being equal with the card .....and usually we get an 'off to ebay' or 'ill keep it (because dont want to sell at market price) '
comment..

Boca Raton, has a great homestead exemption like all of Florida...that's why OJ moved down to Florida

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ksabet

+1 Agreed! I am not sure why but I feel 100x worse knowing that the head of a TPG would do this. Auctioneers are like mechanics...I try to find the ones who will rip you off the least, but the heads of SGC?!?! pretty ridiculous.

same with politicians....I vote for the guy/gal that will steal the least

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Is Forman the same one from SGC? And can anyone see if those shilled lots were SGC cards? ?

Here is a list of all the shilled lots consigned by Steve and Dave. Most are SGC, but there are some PSA and GAI.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pub?output=pdf

[Stonepony]

Forman shills
April 2007
Lot 464 1953 B Mantle SGC 88
Lot 476 1955 T Koufax SGC 92
Lot 1111 1911 E94 Crawford PSA 8
Lot 1354 1934 Goudey uncut sheet
Lot 1379 1953 T B Russell SGC 96

June 2007
Lot 1035 1964 T Giants F Robinson SGC 96
Lot 1678 1938 PSA graded collection

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Here is a list of all the shilled lots consigned by Steve and Dave. Most are SGC, but there are some PSA and GAI.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pub?output=pdf

Just means he is an equal opportunity profiteer.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The consignor obviously would have preferred a reserve, as it would not have cost him thousands of dollars not to sell his set, as it turned out, but he was told the option was not available. So he took the instruction of what was then still a mostly highly respected auction house as to an alternative. Sure everyone can sit in judgment now. Whatever.

Peter, I guess that's the point I made earlier: this type of practice is not just reflected on as shady now, it was shady then. As evidenced by its appearance in the court documents.

If ANY auction house offers this type of shady practice, it should have been a big red flag and clearly was not worth the respect people were giving it. Just because a person or auction house compels someone to do something illegal/unethical, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Parsing it for people sitting in judgement now is a cop out. It was wrong then - that's the point.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Just means he is an equal opportunity profiteer.

The hypothesis that came to mind as to why the Formans had some cards they didn't cross to SGC prior to selling were:

1) They couldn't bump it to SGC because it was trimmed and were worried about their "guarantee".

2) The pop report with the other graders made the card look rarer than their pops would.

3) So they could have deniability that they showed preference to their cards

[bn2cardz]

.double post.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The hypothesis that came to mind as to why the Formans had some cards they didn't cross to SGC prior to selling were:

1) They couldn't bump it to SGC because it was trimmed and were worried about their "guarantee".

2) The pop report with the other graders made the card look rarer than their pops would.

3) So they could have deniability that they showed preference to their cards

Sounds pretty logical to me.

I wonder if SGC's move to Florida was planned after they new this bombshell was coming out.

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The hypothesis that came to mind as to why the Formans had some cards they didn't cross to SGC prior to selling were:

1) They couldn't bump it to SGC because it was trimmed and were worried about their "guarantee".

2) The pop report with the other graders made the card look rarer than their pops would.

3) So they could have deniability that they showed preference to their cards

Thinking like a criminal there...and probably right.

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Here is a list of all the shilled lots consigned by Steve and Dave. Most are SGC, but there are some PSA and GAI.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pub?output=pdf

The head of SGC is involved in nearly 30 lots that were shill bid with approximately 2/3 of the card graded by his own company.

PSA has members of its Board of Experts appear as shill bidders.

Maybe no one else goes to jail after Bill and Doug but there are certainly a lot more than just one auction house getting sh#t on them over this.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.

SGC has less then 3%.

If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess.

How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding.

Haha

You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed.

If I had a large amount of funds tied up in SGC cards this would make me sick to my stomach.

Selective reading? Comprehension problem?

There are just as many PSA names on the list as there are SGC.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Selective reading? Comprehension problem?

There are just as many PSA names on the list as there are SGC.

You see an owner?

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Sounds pretty logical to me.

I wonder if SGC's move to Florida was planned after they new this bombshell was coming out.

No, just happened the same week.

When the news broke about the move, someone on here questioned if the company was being sold. That might be holding more water now.

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Just tell them that your classroom is make-believe.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Tough question, but tell them this type of thing has been going on for years in all areas of the world and that 2 wrongs don't make a right and the fact these people were caught.

Reinforce the love about collecting and not about making money and the hobby will survive.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

You see an owner?

If someone at a company is breaking the law, does it matter if it's an employee or an owner?

You're free to talk about it over here on this board. Let's see you go start a thread about it over on CU, and call out the PSA names that are involved. No, you want do that because you and have no balls! Grow a set!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by byrone

What a shame.

As someone who prefers business be left to it's own as much as possible, these auction businesses show the need for regulation/enforcement/oversight...at least more so than has been in the past

I think the two leading auction houses in the world are Sotheby's and Christies. Just Google them and see how many times they have broken the law.
Regulation is definitely needed.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I think the key word is ethics in this statement. Lawyer......ethics............ethics............la wyer.

Just when I was warming up to you Pete......... Please tell me that you're not a family court lawyer though. Then I could care less. Those are the ones that directly piss me off the most.

I think you can basically now be known as the Jason Giambi of this site. You admitted it and thus will take less flack. You will also be commended for owning up to it rather than hiding behind lies. It will be a mute point, it will all blow over. Now I'd like to know who the other's are on the site that aren't owning up !!

Just to clarify, my name appears at the top of that post as I'm replying to Pete. I am not Pete...

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If someone at a company is breaking the law, does it matter if it's an employee or an owner?

You're free to talk about it over here on this board. Let's see you go start a thread about it over on CU, and call out the PSA names that are involved. No, you want do that because you and have no balls! Grow a set!

There is a huge difference between an employee and the owner.

Use some common sense.

In terms of starting a thread on CU about it. You are right I won't. But obviously you recognize my name from there and I have taken on all comers. That is a fact.

There isn't one person on any of these boards that would have withstood the hazing I took and never once complained or went to the mods. I obviously have a set. Thank you very much.

[tiger8mush]

So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

[slidekellyslide]

I'm shocked that Dave Forman's lawyer hasn't made a comment yet.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

And if you discovered one of your slabbed signatures was doctored? You could care less? Employees were willing to do what it took to make more money by shilling - would they authenticate a doctored signature to make more money?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

In terms of starting a thread on CU about it. You are right I won't.

Of course you won't. You have no balls. If you did, you would call out Reznikoff, Keating, Rullo, etc.

Why will you do it over here, but not over there?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

The only problem then is that your next card is going to cost you more money because the market for years was artificially inflated by the shillers in these auctions. Even if they won their own lot back it created a false market.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Of course you won't. You have no balls. If you did, you would call out Reznikoff, Keating, Rullo, etc.

Why will you do it over here, but not over there?

Probably because he knows the thread will last 5 seconds before it's gone.

[ALR-bishop]

Someone did start a thread. The OP, who I do not know and had a fairly low post count, generally just mentioned the matter and referred people to this board.

The thread lasted longer that 5 seconds ( or various lamb shakes), but not by much. Not sure if the OP was banned or put on probation

[ashes13]

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

what to make of this?

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...

I think it will. It's the very reason the silence from some board members is deafening.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

There is a huge difference between an employee and the owner.

41 Apr‐07 1512 Joe Orlando (consignor) Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski (shill bidders) Rob Rosen (Winner) $85,245.00 (winning price) $19,099.00 (loss amount)

Now what do you say?

[rdwyer]

If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

See R312 thread. I found my next card last night and am looking for the next one!! All of this thread is a good learning lesson.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

41 Apr‐07 1512 Joe Orlando (consignor) Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski (shill bidders) Rob Rosen (Winner) $85,245.00 (winning price) $19,099.00 (loss amount)

Now what do you say?

This may be a mistake on the government's part. I thought that lot was consigned by JOHN Orlando a BoSox batboy?

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Of course you won't. You have no balls. If you did, you would call out Reznikoff, Keating, Rullo, etc.

Why will you do it over here, but not over there?

I assume you're well aware that people on CU are not really allowed to speak their mind about anything beyond rainbows and unicorns. Anything that smells remotely of scandal or discord is ruthlessly squashed, and far too often people lose their posting privileges there. Many here might not think that's a big deal, but there are still many there that enjoy the interaction and community.

I think it's wrong to not allow members to discuss a topic like this, but it's their private playground - they've consistently shown that they won't tolerate mud-slinging, especially when it concerns their big submitters, staff and shareholders. Better to get out in front of a situation rather than cover up and deny, imo.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Just to clarify, my name appears at the top of that post as I'm replying to Pete. I am not Pete...

I know I was using your quote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

This may be a mistake on the government's part. I thought that lot was consigned by JOHN Orlando a BoSox batboy?

Or a member of his family. I have it on good word that is not the Joe Orlando affiliated with PSA.

[ezez420]

For curiosity sake was there any shills done

[1880nonsports]

although that never stopped anybody. Unless I'm mistaken they have a rule that allows a consignor to bid on their own items as long as they pay the hammer.
The more I look into this mess and despite knowing this was likely going on, I'm quite sad about some of the people who will look you in the eye and tell you they have your best interests in mind - and are cheating the hell out of you behind your back. Complicity is equally distasteful.
Certainly a part of me hopes this whole debacle hopefully isn't over - as shining a bright light on the subject might lead to some oversight (although a witch hunt is unpalatable and not productive) - outfits like roaches corner are obvious bad guys - but when the "good guys" start to behave like bad guys something should be done - maybe now the fuse has been lit.
That Dave Forman has been exposed for allegedly shilling his own stuff - such a breach of trust is truly freaking vile. Along the way I think my TPG of choice has made some bad business decisions. This perhaps a game changer. It will certainly devalue the brand as trust is an important concept when farming out one's cards. Much sadness.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

You see an owner?

Isn't PSA a publicly traded company?

While their stock holdings are likely too small to be reportable to the SEC so we could never know, isn't it likely that members of this so-called "Board of Experts" own some stock?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

although that never stopped anybody. Unless I'm mistaken they have a rule that allows a consignor to bid on their own items as long as they pay the hammer.
The more I look into this mess and despite knowing this was likely going on, I'm quite sad about some of the people who will look you in the eye and tell you they have your best interests in mind - and are cheating the hell out of you behind your back. Complicity is equally distasteful.
Certainly a part of me hopes this whole debacle hopefully isn't over - as shining a bright light on the subject might lead to some oversight (although a witch hunt is unpalatable and not productive) - outfits like roaches corner are obvious bad guys - but when the "good guys" start to behave like bad guys something should be done.
That Joe Orlando and Dave Forman have been exposed for shilling their own stuff - such a breach of trust is truly freaking vile.

Not the PSA Joe Orlando. This has been discussed already in this thread.

[h2oya311]

Any other Net54 members want to come clean?

JC Clarke - multiple items consigned / all shilled by Jay Dyer
Kevin Struss - on the shill list once / but the victim far more often - any explanation?
...