T210-3 Orange Borders

[rdixon1208]

Hey guys. I know this has been discussed, but I was hoping we could revisit it. I’ve been doing some digging, and I was able to find scans/photos of the following T210 Orange Bordered cards:

Billiard 1
Blanding 2
Burch 4
Curry 3
Firestine 3
Gordon 3
Hooks 2
Johnston 3
Jones 2
Leidy 1
Nagel 2
Northen 2
Slaven 2
Stringer 2
Thebo 2
Yantz 2

I also found some text that indicated that there are examples out there of Tullas, Alexander, Kip, Munsell, and Stinson. Can any of you confirm this? Do you have scans? Are there any other examples that you’ve seen or heard of?

This year’s REA auction had a series 3 complete set in it with 13 orange borders. However, each of the OB’s in the lot had previously known examples. With that many, I would really expect some new subjects. I know there used to be a belief that every card in the series 3 set was printed with an ob, but the fact that we keep seeing the same subjects over and over makes me think that this is very unlikely. Any thoughts?

Here's my only one


If anyone wants the scans/pics that I found online, send me a PM

I am pretty sure I picked up a Stinson for a fellow board member last yr at Balt. Nationals. He frequents the board and I am sure will chime in.

[steve B]

Mine is a Nagel. No scan yet, I've had it since the early 90's.

Steve B

[smtjoy]

My lone example-

[DixieBaseball]

I own the Firestine, Gordon, and Nagel Orange Border cards. I also checked my research notes and I don't believe there are any documented examples of a Dallas, Shreveport, or Fort Worth player which would indicate that during the printing process they corrected the problem after finishing with these teams : Houston, San Antonio, Waco, Galveston, Oklahoma City. Brian may have some more to add to this as he has been collecting these rascals as long as I have, and has several examples.

Thanks, JJ


Edited to add Jones (A 4th OB I own that I forgot to add in this thread)

[Leon]

I think I still have these for examples but know for sure I have the yellowish looking one. My good friend, John Esch, in Ft. Worth has a really yellow one.....The more yellow the neater they are to me.....Brian M. does know more about these than most as he does collect 'em fairly earnestly.....regards

[DixieBaseball]

Leon - I never get tired of seeing your Yellow border T210. (I need one of these for my T210 type collection, so tell your good buddy John in Fort Worth I am a super easy target should he want to trade or sale )

[mdschulze]

Sorry about the poor scan quality. My wife sent it to me and the file was too large to upload... had to make some adjustments! Also, thanks to tbob for letting me purchase this one from him awhile back... top-notch guy in my book!

BTW... this may be considered a faded red instead of a true orange... the scan color doesn't acurately show it because the scanned image is darker. Maybe tbob can help on this individual one.

ADDED: After a consultation with my wife, who has the card in hand, she agrees that it's a faded red instead of a true orange. Sorry Robert. I thought I was helping but it was a mistake on my end!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

Leon - I never get tired of seeing your Yellow border T210. (I need one of these for my T210 type collection, so tell your good buddy John in Fort Worth I am a super easy target should he want to trade or sale )

Hey Jeremy
I am not sure if I call it true yellow but you can easily see the difference between the other two oranges. On the other hand, John's is really yellow. I mean banana yellow. And no, unfortunately he is as passionate of a collector as we are so it's in a very good, stable, home and not going anywhere.

[rp12367]

I am just curious as to what price a T210 Orange might run in VG or EX condition. I have been wanting to pick one up for awhile. I have seen one on e-bay that Yepbg has been trying to sell for some time now. He had started at $1000 and has been working his way down $700 now. Is this way over priced or is this what one goes for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T210-Old-Mi...item3cba6334a5

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rp12367

I am just curious as to what price a T210 Orange might run in VG or EX condition. I have been wanting to pick one up for awhile. I have seen one on e-bay that Yepbg has been trying to sell for some time now. He had started at $1000 and has been working his way down $700 now. Is this way over priced or is this what one goes for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T210-Old-Mi...item3cba6334a5

I have sold and bought them in the 150-350 range....and I would expect to pay that today for a nice average grade one. I think a brighter orange, like the one above, would carry a bit more premium. In the 700-1000 range is ridiculous imho....

[rp12367]

Leon, Thanks for the info. I had assumed that it was way off base.

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Jeremy
I am not sure if I call it true yellow but you can easily see the difference between the other two oranges. On the other hand, John's is really yellow. I mean banana yellow. And no, unfortunately he is as passionate of a collector as we are so it's in a very good, stable, home and not going anywhere.

Leon, is your friend's card of the same subject (Thebo) as yours?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

Leon, is your friend's card of the same subject (Thebo) as yours?

I am not sure but can probably check. He is an old time collector. His e92's are e92's.....regardless of the backs .

[rdixon1208]

OK, as far as can tell there are 20 known subjects:

Alexander
Billiard
Blanding
Burch
Curry
Firestine
Gordon
Hooks
Johnston
Jones
Kip
Leidy
Munsell
Nagel
Northen
Slaven
Stinson
Stringer
Thebo
Yantz


He may have an updated list, but in 2009 Brian M listed the same 20 players through his research.

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

I own the Firestine, Gordon, and Nagel Orange Border cards. I also checked my research notes and I don't believe there are any documented examples of a Dallas, Shreveport, or Fort Worth player which would indicate that during the printing process they corrected the problem after finishing with these teams : Houston, San Antonio, Waco, Galveston, Oklahoma City. Brian may have some more to add to this as he has been collecting these rascals as long as I have, and has several examples.

Thanks, JJ

Jeremy, in your post you said that they might have corrected the problem after finishing some of the teams. That's assuming that they were printed team-by-team. Does anyone know if this is true?

It seems to me that if there are 20 known subjects that they could have all been printed together?

Leon, the reason I asked about your friend's yellow card is because of these:

thebocomp.jpg

There's an obvious color progression, and that's what made me wonder....

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Jeremy
I am not sure if I call it true yellow but you can easily see the difference between the other two oranges. On the other hand, John's is really yellow. I mean banana yellow. And no, unfortunately he is as passionate of a collector as we are so it's in a very good, stable, home and not going anywhere.

Banana Yellow sounds delightful. (Would love to see this rascal...)

[shammus]

Sorry guys for being a bit tardy on this thread. A lot of you know that I love collecting cards with goofy colors so these fall right into my wheelhouse.

Here is my little chart on the population headcount of these. I'm sure it's not accurate but I try to keep the excel spreadsheet updated. Someone previously said they had seen 20 different players and that's exactly where I am too on my research. 20 players and 55 (approx) examples overall that I've seen since I've been paying attention. I'll keep an eye on this thread in case someone has one not on my spreadsheet....

standings
Slaven 5
Gordon 6
Firestein 5
Burch 3
Johnston 4
Curry 2
Leidy 3
Thebo 3
Nagel 5
Blanding 2
Hooks 2
Stringer 2
Jones 3
Yantz 2
Northen 1
Alexander 1
Billiard 1
Kip 2
Munsell 1
Stinson 2
TOTAL 55


My current collection of these sits at 15 players -
Blanding, Burch, Curry, Firestine, Gordon, Hooks, Jones. Kipp, Leidy, Nagel, Northern, Slaven, Stringer, Stinson, Yantz. So I've got a few left to find according to my list.

I've also yet to bring a true t210 Yellow into my collection although that t210 that I have pictured below with all the creases has a lot of yellow in it. I do have a t210 PINK border though. However, I think that we decided that t210s that show up pink are due to some sort of a chemical, whereas orange and yellow borders occured because those cards missed a color pass in their original print runs. Some scans are below, including the t210 pink-bordered Roth that I have. Also interesting is the Reis which has sort of a missing border...


t210oranges.jpg

pink.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Jeremy, in your post you said that they might have corrected the problem after finishing some of the teams. That's assuming that they were printed team-by-team. Does anyone know if this is true?
It seems to me that if there are 20 known subjects that they could have all been printed together?

Hey Robert - I came to the conclusion that the T210's were printed by the team after buying a series 5 card last year of McCarthy which was miscut top to bottom and had the name of Mangum at the top of the card. (I have scans at home I can get you when I return) Mangum and McCarthy were teammates for Anderson. I am speculating a bit on this part, but perhaps horizontally each row was of 1 player such as McCarthy and then the row above it had the next player on team, etc. The answer to your question might be some of both as the sheets held a certain amount of cards vertically/horizontally, so with each team having different numbers of players, some sheets my contain say 7 players, then the next team in the series was positioned above it. Example of Anderson Series 5 : (hope this makes sense)

Series 5 Anderson:
Mangum - Mangum - Mangum - Mangum - Mangum - Mangum - Mangum -
McCarthy - McCarthy - McCarthy - McCarthy - McCarthy - McCarthy -
....
....
Series 5 Charlotte :
....
....
Series 5 Spartanburg:
....
....
Series 5 Winstom Salem:
....
....
Series 5 Greenville:
....
....
Series 5 Greensboro:
....
....
Series 6 Lexington:
....
....

[rdixon1208]

I get what you're saying Jeremy, and I think I remember you saying something about that series 5 card before now that you mention it again.

But the numbers on these OB's don't indicate the same thing IMO. Brian has confirmed 6 Gordon (Waco) cards. There are 9 players on the Waco team who don't have a confirmed OB. So with that, it's hard to believe that they were printed together.

[DixieBaseball]

Robert - I understand your point as well, but I think there has to be many more of these tucked away in collections. How many from the sheets didn't make it ? (Being scrapped after printing) More time is needed, but I think you are onto something and we should continue to monitor....

[Leon]

Hey Guys and especially anyone keeping count.....

John Esch reports-

I have 7 orange borders, all of which are already on that list. They are Alexander, Blanding, Curry, Johnston, Kipp, Leidy and Stringer. The mellow yellow is Munsell, Waco.

[DixieBaseball]

A little follow up (been on vacation)... Here are my 4 examples :

[rp12367]

Jeremy, Love that Jones with the Orange border... Nice cards

[rp12367]

Just got this in todays mail. It's my first Orange Border and hopefully not the last. Thanks to Frank Wakefield for the deal. I know Frank has shown this on here before, but here it is again at it's new home Would love to see some more if anyone hasn't posted them yet...

[DixieBaseball]

Well, I am seeing red after just acquiring a 16 card lot of Orange Borders pulled from a near complete Series 3 subset which was a part of a 99% complete T210 set. This is a major find for me through a third party and I am tickled to share them with you T210/Orange Border lover's out there. (Brian M. - I have been trying to reach you!)

Also, I wanted to revive this thread from last month regarding "20 Known examples" of players in the series 3 subset of 95 players. I now believe what Robert D. was indicating in his initial post in this thread about there only being 20 known players of Orange borders. I came to this conclusion after acquiring this lot of players and then reviewing history of all REA and Legendary Auctions back several years. I also reviewed all Net 54 Orange Border threads and per my calculations, I came up with 117 known examples of Orange borders and they only included the 20 players mentioned in this thread from 5 of the 8 Series 3 teams. My research also shows multiples of each of the 20 players but the range is anwhere from 3-9 of each player. (*Some of my research may yield duplicates due to buying/selling activity of same cards, so the 117 count could be a little high*)

More discussion to come, I hope... Meanwhile I will toss this intial scan of OB's on the board. These just arrived in the mail today...I will get better scans posted in time. The Orange color ranges between about 5 different shades...

[rdixon1208]

What an amazing haul Jeremy! That scan is shocking! Congratulations!

[Vintagecatcher]

Jeremy,

Great pickup on the Orange Borders! Congrats!

Patrick

[Leon]

Congrats Jeremy.....very cool indeed!!

[rp12367]

I have been meaning to post this pic. Scan is of the Gordon card, I won from Dan last month on e-bay. It is middle card shown next to Orange Border Gordon (Cabrol card is just to show a red border). I think this card is just faded rather than a true Orange Var. By itself it does appear to be somewhat Orange. Any thoughts would be great. Thanks

[oldjudge]

I never really spent much time looking for these but I counted and I have 17 in my set: Billiard, Blanding, Burch, Curry, Firestein, Gordon, Hooks, Johnston, Jones, Kipp, Leidy, Munsell, Nagel, Slavin, Stinson, Stringer and Yantz.

[DixieBaseball]

After starting in 2008 collecting OB's, I was very fortunate to land a large grouping of 12 new OB's last year that pushed me from 4 to 16 Ob's. So armed with a few duplicates, I got busy trying to find the final 4 OB's I needed for my 20 card sub set. With the help of Robert from the board, we struck a 2 for 1 OB trade a few months back for #17 Burch (Thanks Robert !) and then I was able to land the very tough to find Thebo (#18) from a hobby friend over the holidays, and just last month was able to land #19 Hooks from another Hobby collector via trades, etc. Finally over the last 2 weeks, with the help of a our fearless Net 54 leader and through a board member, I was able to land #20, a very tough OB to find, Kipp ! I wanted to Thank all of these gentlemen for helping me to the finish line, and I don't think I would have ever got there without your help. (Special Thanks to Robert, Tony, Leon, and John for helping me with these final 4 cards) Collecting is fun, but it is more fun when you have guys in the hobby that can help you reach your collecting goals and you can help them in return with their collections. Thanks again guys, for helping me push through these last 6 months with these final 4 OB's I needed. I am complete !

[shammus]

Congrats Jeremy! I know how hard you worked on this one...a tremendous accomplishment!!

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by shammus

Congrats Jeremy! I know how hard you worked on this one...a tremendous accomplishment!!

Thanks Brian ! (Your next... 5 to go...)

[Leon]

Congrats Jeremy. Glad I could help a little bit....and for the record, the person I got you in contact with is a member here but doesn't post. He does read the board though and is a fine gentleman I have had the pleasure of knowing for several years....as well as I have been to his house to see a really nice old school collection. Nice OBs you showed, by the way!!

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Leon

Congrats Jeremy. Glad I could help a little bit....and for the record, the person I got you in contact with is a member here but doesn't post. He does read the board though and is a fine gentleman I have had the pleasure of knowing for several years....as well as I have been to his house to see a really nice old school collection. Nice OBs you showed, by the way!!

Thanks Leon ! (I was able to peruse this board members want list and my jaw dropped to the floor with what he has been able to accomplish since the mid 70's. Old school indeed. Tremendous.)

[rdixon1208]

Congrats Jeremy! You got there quickly after you scored that big group. Hit me up if you still have any doubles.

[Jason Carota]

Great accomplishment, Jeremy. Congrats!

[tbob]

Jeremy, you da' man!

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Robert, Jason, and Bob ! Hope to get a little website together soon to display these along with some other material. I am still baffled about the actual 20 players that have printing errors. We know that most likely there will not be another player discovered with a range of 3-9 examples known of the 20 players each. What baffles me was how these players were positioned together on a sheet. Only 1 Galveston, 2 Houston, 2 Oklahoma, 6 Waco, and 9 San Antonio players with color error. With the player pattern of 20 players, it's hard to visualize why it was these 20 that were positioned on the sheet to get the color error and then again, and again. Does this lend itself to being just a few sheets (or just 1 sheet?) with the same player horizontally across the sheet ? We know from a few examples T210's had different players vertically, so perhaps a sheet had 10-20 examples across and the color error hit the same spots on a few sheets, or maybe it was more simple than that...

For the sheet experts out there, is it possible to only have 20 players on 1 sheet or is that not likely due to too being to small ? Perhaps we need to study the names of the players for a clue on the pattern? I am trying to figure out why would it be these 20 players with a smattering from 5 of the 8 teams in the series.

Just thinking out loud. I will hang up and listen...

[DixieBaseball]

For those select few that love the T210 set, I wanted to draw your attention to something I noticed while studying the set. There are 3 "Oklahoma City" players (Bandy, Davis, Walsh) and 2 "Oklahoma" players (Jones & Nagel) that actually represent 1 team from the Series 3 subset. In case the OB collector's have not noticed, you can't get the Oklahoma City players in Orange. (Only Red) The only 2 Orange Borders available from this team are the 2 Oklahoma players, Jones & Nagel. I wonder if the variation of team names is as simple as the players uniforms ? The 3 OC players show Oklahoma City on their uniform, where as the 2 Oklahoma players only show a "O" and the other street clothes. Perhaps when the card mfg. assigned the team names the simple oversight was they looked at the players and assigned their team name according to the uniforms. Just found that to be a tad interesting at the micro T210 level. Carry on... Nothing to see here.

Thanks, JJ

P.S. My guess is there is a "C" on the other side of Nagel's (sleeve) jacket, but since it is not visible his card didn't get the Oklahoma City variation.