Rookie card -continued

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Posted By: leon

Thought I would start a new thread for sake of getting lost....What a can 'o worms !! Rookie card....a players first major (?) league card. Card- can be just about anything you want it to be. We have debated this before and I believe never came to a general consensus....which is exactly why I lost focus on my first collecting interest which was rookie HOF's...since I got my '25 Gehrig Exhibit which is most likely his "rookie" "card"......?? Let me throw a few barbs in the shield....what about the 1863 Hoboken match ticket that says "admit to bearer on demand" ....and was meant to get into a match series as a ticket....yet it is the first "card"..(AND a n expert with a major auction house says he too thinks it is a ticket and not a card)..what about strip cards? Exhibits? "Only 1 knowns" like the Wagner Reccius-although it's minors anyway....and who wouldn't rather have Ruth's '14 card instead of his "rookie"? Joe Jackson rookie Old Mill (minors), What about the Just So Cy Young? and early CDV's-where do they fit....like the '71 Anson CDV? just some thoughts on a dull afternoon....regards all.....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The minor league cards are easy--they are not rookie cards since the player is not in the major leagues. The CDV's and 1 of a kind cards are problematic for me since I always viewed rookie cards as the first regionally or nationally distributed cards for the players. How do we know that the CDV or single format card was ever distributed at all? Ever heard of a proof or a test card? We also don't know whether the item was used as a "card" or is something else, like the ticket situation Leon mentions. I have a Dodgers ticket stub from last year with Shawn Green's photo on it--is that a card? I don't think so. If my ticket stub isn't a card, why is the ticket discussed a card? Because some auctioneer decided that hyping the item as a card made the most sense. Most of these cabinets and CDV'S aren't really "cards" to speak of--they are more akin to promotional photos like the ones given out by teams in the 1950's-1970's to fans who wrote in. I have a postcard-sized Pete Rose photo that I got in the mail in 1977. Is that a card? I collect exhibit cards. Many collectors don't consider these to be "cards" because they are postcard sized and were distributed in vending machines (except later when they were sold in packs). Is the Jimmy Foxx postcard back "exhibit" that I have, which dates from the late 1920's a rookie "card"?

Sorry to go on a screed, but I am tired of reading all sorts of things being hyped as the earliest card, first card, etc., when if they were issued today they would not be classified as a card at all.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Leon,

I think that you and I have "Agreed to Disagree" on the Rookie card topic, as well as the 1863 Hoboken Card (yes, I believe it is a card). One point of clarification. The 1897 Honus Wagner card is not a Minor League Card. Louisville was part of the National League at the time Wagner played for them. Even still, while I consider it a legitimate card, I don't consider it his true Rookie card, since to the best of our knowledge, it was not part of a set (my own definition). At least I keep telling myself that, so that I can justify the small fortune that I paid for an E107 Wagner.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

The 1863 Wright can't be considered a card, nor any CdV (Carte de Visite/Visiting Card), since most of them were personal property of the person pictured for later use as a "calling" card.

I don't consider Just So's as cards, since first I need to see the elusive (if any) box,package, tin or pouch containing that brand of tobacco.
I owned a nice Just So Virtue, and later sold it, because I lost interest.

I'm a collector of mostly 19th century material, mainly Cabinet photographs and CdV's and will never consider them as baseball cards.

jl

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Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)

Jaime, are you suggesting that the Just So cards may never have been actually issued, since there is no packaging to prove it? If so, I can attest to having held an example (can't remember if it was McKean or Childs)being offered by Terry Knouse last year that had very noticeable tobacco staining on both sides, strongly suggesting that it was packaged with tobacco. Granted, some do not recognize these cards as true rookies of some of the players because of the issue's scarcity and apparent regional distribution, but I did not know that you or others believe the set lacks legitimacy because there has been no packaging found to date. Hopefully, Leon will track down a pack, tin, box or other container which puts the matter to rest, and then post a scan of that so poor folks like me can enjoy it vicariously!!!!!!!!
Regards..............Todd

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Posted By: jay behrens

There was a Just So actress card on eBay recently, so issueed more than just baseball players.

Jay

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Posted By: jeff

But Andy, didn't you see the Honus newspaper "rookie" last week? And to think, you could've hit a buy it now for only $999.

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Posted By: leon

OK I was forced to go into my secret, monitored room and break into my jewelers safe. I am now fondling and smelling the Childs card (see mom, no plastic)...It certainly looks and smells "period". I believe that the Just So cards were cards and issued with some sort of tobacco product. My guess, and this is only a guess based on a few facts, is that they were issued in some sort of tin. I had my Mckean validated by SGC and I know of at least 1 other graded example. There might be more but I am not sure and haven't personally seen any others in slabs. I have heard a few theories about the cards and their "authenticity". I guess if EVERY ONE of the experts that have looked at them made a mistake then there could be an issue of their originality. I have heard a theory that they could be old but not necessarily the year that is presumed. I believe the year of mfg is in accordance with when the players played for the Spiders. I also believe that in time a Just SO tobacco container of some sort will be found. Just my guess but I am an optimist. If I do find something ya'll will know.....I will be the balding, fat, Jewish (can I say that?) guy in the street doing cartwheels and somersaults...and that won't be pretty ....till then this is the card I got, to upgrade, from Tik at the Nationals....then sold the Mckean.....best regards

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Leon, that's a nice specimen...
My Just So Virtue had more "tobacco" stains....
BTW, it hasn't been slabbed so far, acording to the new owner (my brother in law)

I paid $500 back in 1992 for it, sold it for a "little" more later. : )

Hope you guys are right about the theory!

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I am glad to hear that there really is no definitive answer as to what constitutes a rookie card for many of these pre-war and 19th century guys.

As a slabber, I know you guys will hate my definition ... but it is simply: "The earliest major league 'card' that PSA will slab for a player."

This means that cabinets are out, but that exhibits are in.

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Posted By: Plastic Dog

The earliest that PSA will slab? OK, suppose you collected racing cards. The earliest AJ Foyt is a 1962 Marhoefer's Meats card. It is roughly the size of an exhibit, but is much thicker (similar to the Topps Supers of late 60s/early 70s). So noone will slab it. Does that mean that some later 1970s issue is Foyt's rookie? Absurd. What about strip cards? Since PSA won't slab them, does that mean they don't count as cards, even if someone's true rookie?

But PSA would slab an Alpha Photo if you could ever pry one loose from the owner. I know him, and it would probably take a Baltimore News Ruth to obtain an Alpha (not his true rookie, if you go by the strict major league definition, as he was with the minor league Orioles on that issue).

Here's something else to consider: SGC won't slab most cabinets - not just because of size but because they weren't issued as part of a set. But I bet they would slab an Alpha. Not sure about PSA - they are pretty behind the curve as far as knowledge goes, so my guess is they will slab it if it's not hand-cut and will fit in their holders.

p.s. Anyone could have had the entire lot of Alphas for $3000 back at the Copeland auction; noone met the reserve and Lipset purchased the entire group post-auction.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

After reading the thread, went today to my brother in law's house to take another look at "my old" J.S Virtue.

The card stock looks pretty much the same like my two Plow's Candy cards... and of course, I doubt about their origin also...

Both sets were "discovered" pretty late, and the biggest hoards were found in the 80's...

Who knows, I'm a negative jewish guy (Can I say that?).

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Posted By: leon

I think there are many on the board that are Jewish...like myself.....but this is about vintage cards and I am quite sure they have no religeon. They also come in many different colors Back to the subject. With all due respect you do seem quite pessimistic (sp?) about the originality of many rare issues. I guess you also have doubts about the Alpha cards, the Reccius Wagner, the mentioned Just So's, the Plow's cards you mentioned, and anything else that is extremely rare. Hmmmm....maybe you could revise Lew's great work (the Encyclopedia) to be about half the current size ? Crap, if I took your thoughts it seems that my type collection might be finished....not being too personal here but those are my thoughts....and if you need a good home for those Plow's cards (that are just fake anyway) I will gladly take them off of your hands.....best regards

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Calm down... : )

Your J.S isn't going to lose value because of my comments, so aren't my Plow's...

Just trying to let you know, that in this "industry", where everything's possible, WE as rare material collectors will need more proof before buying high $ types.

Since the early 90's when I started spending heavily, I started cuestioning many things.
Just like some days ago when I sent an email to a major grading co. to ask about slabbing some CdV's, their response was... What is a CdV? Is it catalogued in the big book?... Good Lord!

The industry sky rocketed back in the 80's and many people could have profited in many ways, and it's scary to think what could have they done back then just to make some $'s.


Hope my Cobb Plow's isn't mad at me! : )

BTW, The jewish thing was meant to be a joke...

jl

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Posted By: HalleyGator

"Ridiculous" would be collecting racing cards in the first place ... but that is just my opinion.

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Posted By: David

I've learned all my knowledge about Rookie Cards from Kenny Golden/Shop at Home. I had never realized how many different RCs Michael Jordan has (1991 College Rookie, 1996 Upper Deck High School Commerative Rookie, 1990 Italian Sticker International Rookie...). Shows me how much I have to learn.

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Posted By: David

I've learned all my knowledge about Rookie Cards from Kenny Golden/Shop at Home. I had never realized how many different RCs Michael Jordan has (1991 College Rookie, 1996 Upper Deck High School Commerative Rookie, 1990 Italian Sticker International Rookie...). Watching only 1/2 hour of listening to Kenny Golden, showed me how much I have to learn.

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Posted By: David

I accidentally posted my comments twice. The first, in a rare unfinished variation, is a proof! Unlike with those Alpha and Just So fakers, the second post proves that there was mass production and by all sane definitions, these posts count as trading cards.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Good One!

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Posted By: James Shaw

Hi, I am the web master of a cigarette packs and advertising web site named Burnt Offerings. Leon contacted me for my thoughts on the Just So cards, and directed me toward your group. There isn't any listing I have for Just So Cigarettes, so can't give you a possible manufacturer of Just So Cut Plug. There are several series of Just So non sports cards: N312, N536, and N656. Burdick mentioned the Just So cards, which means they pre-date any possible 1980s fakes. Also, I doubt any one would print fake actress cards because they wouldn't command much. If the actress cards are authentic, then the baseball cards are probably an early issue too. Since Mayo and Allen & Ginter were two of the N312 manufacturers, then The American Tobacco Company was probably the owner/manufacturer of the Just So brand. James Duke's ATCo bought up many small tobacco companies before the turn of the century. I think that it's just a matter of time until a Just So tin or packet turns up.

Best wishes, Jim Shaw

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Posted By: David

Though I've never examined one in person, I don't doubt that the Just So are legitimate cards. Leon's a smart guy, and if he says they're legimate I have no reason to argue.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Do you have access to a Gypsy Queen pack? If so, I would have an interest.

Thanks!