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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:05 AM
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Default authentic grade

Posted By: dennis

would it be so hard for the 4 legitimate grading companys to get together and have a common purpose in issuing a grade of AUTHENTIC (TR or HC)on any card issue which has been cut after it leaves the factory. this should inclde strip cards,cards w/coupons cut off and just your ordinary old trimmed pre war issue. would it be possible thru this board (to get to them) to agree to such a thing? how about the auction houses getting in on this too. show or tell about the discrepencies in this type of grading,i know it happens all the time and within the same grading company(s). here is a card (that i sold)that has a NM grade....it was hand cut!

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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:29 AM
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Posted By: James Gallo

I don't mind the Authentic grade, what I would like to see is something added saying way it was authentic. Sure you can assume most would be trimmed if they otherwise looked nice but how hard would ut be to add a little TR to the flip....

As for the hand cut cards well you are going to get a ton of feedback on that and there are a lot of people that feel a hand cut card should never have a grade and only have the authentic label.

The way I see it is if a company can tell that card was not cut recently then the card should be able to get a grade.

If I buy a uncut strip and cut them up the cards should only be able to get an Authentic grade. I believe there would be some toning to the sides of the cards if they were cut years ago.

As for when the cut off period should be, I would say that if the edges of the card have toning then it can get a grade, if not they were cut to recently and should not get a number grade.

The problem I see with this is that it will add a lot of work into grading these cards and i doubt the companies want the additional work load especailly when they seem over worked as it is especially PSA.

I think every card in a authentic holder should have some additional note on it. What if a card was not trimmed but had ink added. Without a note oen might assume trimmed but that would not be the case and the ink may bother people more then a trim would.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:32 AM
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Posted By: Marc S.

I cannot imagine any scenario, no matter what the opinion of this board, that would compel the grading companies to change their m.o. on grading hand cut cards.

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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:31 AM
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Posted By: leon

I think Marc is spot on about this. No reason to change.

For the record I absolutely disagree with the way strip cards are graded today. I don't think it would be easy to tell if it's a scissor cut from 70 years ago or 7 days ago. IMHO, as an addicted vintage card collector, every single card that was meant to be cut from a box or strip should ONLY get AUT....Or if they really want to put a number on them then every single one should say (Handcut)......I know it will never change but I won't either ....at least on this issue. I chuckle and shake my head every time I see a high grade strip card..... regards

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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:46 PM
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Posted By: Fred C

Obviously, cards that didn't have the coupons trimmed off should be eligible for a numeric grade. All hand cut cards should only be given an AUT label with an HC type of qualifier.

Personally (here's the broken record part of me going off)... I feel that the grading companies should be called Authenticating Companies and that those Authenticating Companies should provide an expert (hahaha) opinion on whether or not the card is AUTHENTIC, whether or not it has been ALTERERED or otherwise RESTORED.

AUTHENTIC - A card that is authentic and unaltered or otherwise restored. The label could also include the flaws found on the card (creases, writing, etc).

ALTERED - A card that is authentic but has been had a minor alteration to it (color added). The label should disclose the minor alteration.

RESTORED - A card that has had MAJOR rework on it. The label should include a restoration synopsis.

What this will do for the hobby is restore it to what it used to be. People actually looking at the cards and coming up with a price on the card based on the condition of the card. This will alleviate a lot of discussion about how bad the grading services are. It's almost unthinkable that there are people out there that will pay thousands of dollars because of a subjective point of view regarding the condition of a card. I suppose it may take the fun out of the hobby for those that have more dollars than brains but it will actually make it so people look closely at what they buy before they buy it. Please, don't tell me that you can't make a decision base on a scan. With todays technology people can make HUGE, CLEAR scans. If they can't then they need to figure out how to do so or get less money for their cards when they sell them. Beleive me, with dollars as a motivator I believe people will LEARN how to do this. Also, people will actually take more time out to enjoy the hobby when they make their hobby purchases. If I've offended someone by the more dollars than brains comment, I apologize. Take it for what it's worth. If you are an offended party then LEARN how to create your own set of standards and stop relying on grading companies to make that decision for you. I get tired of hearing people complain about the piss poor quality of a card graded that has been graded a 5 or 6 when it probably should have only been graded a 3 or 4.

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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:58 PM
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Posted By: Vanessa Phipps

Why hasn't someone invented a machine where you put the card on a conveyor, goes under a scanner, which measures size, width, color, authenticity, trimming, etc.? Then the computer determines what the grade should be by the criteria set forth by the programmer. In my opinion this would take the grading out of the hands of someone who may be tired, may have looked at many cards that day, may give someone who is a large dealer who sends in hundreds of cards a month a better grade, ETC. Probably a stupid idea but I think it would clean up a lot of altering of cards, fakes, or subjective grading. Ok boys tear me up!!!




Go Hogs! Hire Lane Kiffin! Mcfadden for Heisman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:13 PM
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Posted By: Paul S

Then the computer determines what the grade should be by the criteria set forth by the programmer.

Vanessa - nice idea, but people would be bitching about the programmer.

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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:23 PM
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Posted By: Fred C

Paul, that's right!

It's a neat idea (the computer) but there's too many variables (color, cut, size, clarity, etc) to consider. I suppose someone could "program" it to look at all aspects but the programmer would have to do this for all issues and all cards within the issues.

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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 07:53 PM
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Posted By: James Gallo

Fred

The problems with your idea is it really doesn't serve the larger purpose especially with more modern cards. I really don't need to know that my 1987 Barry Bonds is really and not altered.

From a business point of view what you describe would only be useful on a very small portion of the card population and therefore would be the death of the business. Ie is would be a poor business model and they would lose a ton of money.

There could be a compromise service in which they could just provide an authentication service and slab the card. It wouldn't be graded with a number but under the terms you have listed. That being said I am not sure this could be done cheaper then the current grading so what would be the point.

As I stated eariler I think more information on the flip is needed especially for altered cards.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:16 PM
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Posted By: David R

I actually would much rather have a nice looking "authentic" grade (maybe trimmed a little or missing some paper on the back that doesn't detract from the eye appeal) than a 1 or 2 or 3 that looks poor or has creases. One of my favorite cards -- a T205 Addie Joss -- is in an SGC authentic holder.

Another reason I like the authentic grade a lot more than an SGC 10 is that I find it hard to get real excited looking at a card that has a big "POOR" label slapped on it. The "authentic" label is less distracting to me and I seem to enjoy looking at my "authentic" cards a lot more.

For this same reason, I would rather not have "trimmed" or "colored" marked on the "authentic" slab. If they wanted to make that information available, they could put it on the website and someone could look it up by typing in the cert number.

It's like your date having "fat" or "dumb" or "ugly" tatooed on her forehead. It takes away a little bit of the joy of looking at her, and makes it a whole lot harder to delude yourself into thinking she's a real beauty.


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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:19 PM
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Posted By: Marc S.

There was a grading company that did just that, although their name escapes me as of right now. I think it was CTA?

Bottom line is that the program was not sophisticated enough to pick up altering techniques. Just check out much of what Kevin Saucier has publically tough us here. The time and expense to properly write script and programs that would allow a machine to do such alterting is much higher than the cost of the human eye and borrowing some of its time.

Seriously, as someone who works for a company that has excellent Script writers, I don't know how you could realistically generate a program that identifies a re-backed card, for example, without causing damage/ruin to the card. And that is a somewhat simplistic alteration.

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  #12  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:19 PM
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Posted By: Jim VB

David R,

<<It's like your date having "fat" or "dumb" or "ugly" tatooed on her forehead. It takes away a little bit of the joy of looking at her, and makes it a whole lot harder to delude yourself into thinking she's a real beauty.>>


LOL!!! I understand exactly what you're saying but I have several suggestions to help.

1. Raise your standards for your dates.

2. Visit and optometrist to have him adjust your prescription. (Either to see more clearly or less clearly. Both ways work.)

3. Drink more heavily. (The old stories were that women look better through the bottom of a glass AND get prettier as closing time rolls around.)


Thanks for the laugh.

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  #13  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:12 PM
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Posted By: David R

JimVB,

I think you've got it! If I drink more heavily when I'm admiring my collection of SGC 10s and 20s maybe they'll begin to look like Jim Crandall's collection.

David R

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  #14  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:53 PM
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Posted By: Fred C

James,

You are correct about the new and shiney stuff being graded. Sure assign numbers to that stuff. Again, I'm sure most people couldn't distinguish the difference between and 9 and 10. Also, if you crack the 10 and resubmit it I'm all but certain you may not get it back into a 10 holder upon resubmission.

For vintage cards it would work great if they assigned the AUTHENTIC, ALTERED or RESTORED labels. I suppose you may be correct in that it may be a poor business model in that it may not drive a market to the brink of stupidity as it has. So much for the hobby aspect of what we do... it's just sad to see the grading services driving the market as it has. Nobody to blame but ourselves...

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  #15  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:05 AM
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Posted By: fkw

All handcut cards should grade "A" for "Authentic" period!!!

There should be no strip cards or handcut cards with a number grade.....ever.

I have a scan (that always irks me) of a SGC96 W513 Haines. Get real there is no way this card was cut in the 1920s......

I have dozens razor sharp cut strip cards and they all get an "A" when I get them graded from SGC. What makes this dang Hains so special????

PS IM sure it would receive 5X++ more $$ at auction as an SGC96 compared to an "A" grade.

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  #16  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:31 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Frank,

I agree with that. How the hell does that get such a high grade. And you are right, that card will get top dollar because of that stupid number. I wonder when that card was cut?

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