J.J. Clarke's Nickname

[arc2q]

I am perplexed / troubled why we in the vintage baseball world still insist on using J.J. Clarke's nickname, "Nig." You see it commonly used in discussions of the player, Baseball Reference, and even on the label of his PSA cards. There is no disputing the origins of that nickname. According to his Wikipedia entry (for what that is worth) even his wife despised the nickname. So, nearly one hundred years later why do we still use that nickname to discuss the player? And certainly why does PSA put it on the flip of his card? There is no reason to as the card actually refers to him as J.J.

[Rich Klein]

Because that is how he is known, I know its sad but just thiink about Heinie Groh, Heinie Manush, etc. Nicknames were much harsher in those days.

[wazoo]

I think it's a part of history. Past ways are nothing we should be proud of, but that's what the times were like back then. Things have obviously changed for the better, but regardless of that, I think it should be recognized for the historical aspect, not racial.

[slidekellyslide]

Almost all Native American players were referred to as "Chief". They would never do this today..."Chief" Ellsbury..."Chief" Chamberlain..almost certainly those guys would have been called that 100 years ago.

[Jeffrompa]

Almost as bad as calling a deaf player " dummy " or others worse .

[travrosty]

i dont think wilt like being called "the stilt" either. but he is still wilt' the stilt' chamberlain.

i know sammy baugh hated the nickname "slinging" sammy baugh and he would not sign anything that way. some nicknames are given by the players themselves, or by others with their blessing, some aren't.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

I am perplexed / troubled why we in the vintage baseball world still insist on using J.J. Clarke's nickname, "Nig." You see it commonly used in discussions of the player, Baseball Reference, and even on the label of his PSA cards. There is no disputing the origins of that nickname. According to his Wikipedia entry (for what that is worth) even his wife despised the nickname. So, nearly one hundred years later why do we still use that nickname to discuss the player? And certainly why does PSA put it on the flip of his card? There is no reason to as the card actually refers to him as J.J.

No expert but there was quite a few players with that nickname. I would say why not use it though ?

Everyone else is making very good points here about the native American players being referred to as Chief or even deaf players as Dummy. Those are just as "racist" as JJ Clarke's nickname "Nig" historical aspect racial tones, whatever fact is that is what the player was known as to me that solidifies it enough to not matter.

I'm not entirely familiar with JJ Clarke so I'm assuming he must have had some black in him because in those days to be called that was the biggest insult you could get. Via Ty Cobb beating a heckler (after being called a half-nig) in the stands in NY. Despised by fans and even his teammates (paraphrasing) "I don't look for applause from the crowd but I wouldn't take back from the United States Army what that man said to me that day, and for the first time in my life I was happy the fans were on my side."

If it's good enough for the Ken Burns documentary for historical reasons it's good enough for me and purely they did it in my opinion for a historical aspect as well as well that's what the player was known as.

It's almost like changing your name if your name if Fred Parent for example and for whatever reason in the t206 set he is known as Billy Parent, then why ??? It wouldn't make sense to drop out a players nickname.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

No expert but there was quite a few players with that nickname. I would say why not use it though ?

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Historians and documentarians should acknowledge Clarke's nickname, and Charles Bender's nickname, etc. But that does not mean we should perpetuate that insult in casual conversations or discussions of the player's cards.

PSA is not alone at fault -- I've seen J.J. Clarke's nickname used quite frequently even in casual conversation on this board -- but I think it is beyond justification that PSA puts "Nig" on the third line of the label on his cards. The T206 card refers to him as J.J. Clarke (which is interesting in its own right since most T206 cards simply list last name and team). Why must PSA perpetuate that odious nickname when even the card makes no reference to it?

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by arc2q

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Although I do not agree with the ways of our ancestors in regards to racial inequality, I believe that this nickname now stands as a time capsule and represents the previous ways of what was acceptable in society and how we have grown so far today. When studying history, we do not forget the various, horrible atrocities or leaders, because it has taught us what not to emulate, but still stands as a crucial part of history. It is important for us not to forget the past and for what it's worth, yet I want to make it clear that I absolutely condemn racial inequality.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Historians and documentarians should acknowledge Clarke's nickname, and Charles Bender's nickname, etc. But that does not mean we should perpetuate that insult in casual conversations or discussions of the player's cards.

PSA is not alone at fault -- I've seen J.J. Clarke's nickname used quite frequently even in casual conversation on this board -- but I think it is beyond justification that PSA puts "Nig" on the third line of the label on his cards. The T206 card refers to him as J.J. Clarke (which is interesting in its own right since most T206 cards simply list last name and team). Why must PSA perpetuate that odious nickname when even the card makes no reference to it?

In all do respect what is racism ? It's just people trying to act out and make something out of nothing to me. I know this can get quite heated so I'll leave it alone at that. That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

This world has become way too sensitive. This is dealing with a players nickname way back when. We're not directly calling anybody that by saying his nickname are we ? And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

I also don't feel as though we should have to point out that we don't agree with what was done and said back then because fact is it was back then. WE didn't do it and WE aren't going around saying nor calling people that now. Over sensitive world but that's just my un-popular opinion. I know that I will now be stoned.

I will say that I suddenly have an itch to get a JJ Clarke t206 with his nickname on it though.

[HexsHeroes]

.

I suspect J.J. Clarke had had some degree of acceptance of his nickname.
That simple opinion is based solely on the handful or two of autographed items
I have encountered (including two of my own), signed by J.J. Clarke, that
nearly all include his nickname.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Although I do not agree with the ways of our ancestors in regards to racial inequality, I believe that this nickname now stands as a time capsule and represents the previous ways of what was acceptable in society and how we have grown so far today. When studying history, we do not forget the various, horrible atrocities or leaders, because it has taught us what not to emulate, but still stands as a crucial part of history. It is important for us not to forget the past and for what it's worth, yet I want to make it clear that I absolutely condemn racial inequality.

I think Wazoo pretty much nailed it. Our country has a lot of history that is reprehensible. But I don't think we should avoid talking about it and pretend it never happened. With that said, I've sold a few Clarkes on ebay, and couldn't bring myself to add his nickname to the listing, even though I am aware of it.

This is not a "thing of the past". I drive by "N***** Creek" everyday on my way to work. Look it up, "N-word Creek, Kittitas County Washington". Washington State Department of Transportation replaces the sign every time it is stolen.

While the name for the Creek has it's roots in 1890's, even then editorials were written in the newspaper that indicated the name should be changed. It's been 120 years, still nothing. Signs still there. Two years ago, there was an attempt to change it to MacPherson Creek or something, but it never took and the sign remains.

People like to bury the past, or say.... "oh that was just the times", but wake up! Yes it happened yesterday, still happens today, and unless something is done to address it, it will probably happen tomorrow. I don't think it is "overly sensitive" to address wrongs past or present.

[packs]

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

I agree that PSA shouldn't but general conversation I have no problem with it. The reason I agree because I haven't seen any nicknames of other players on a PSA slab so why JJ Clarkes ?

[z28jd]

How many people think Three-Fingers Brown or One Arm Daily are acceptable nicknames? The only reason those nicknames from back then acceptable now is because that's how they were referred to during the time. If people want to ignore those names based on what it means, we all still know who J.J. Clarke is, so no big deal calling him that too. The nickname tells a story of the time, just like players being called Deacon or Lady.

BTW, Clarke is one of ten MLB players that went by that nickname, so he isn't an isolated case.

[packs]

But what is the valid argument for perpetuating the nickname for anyone? You can say that it is a reflection of the time, and that is fair. But how is that a valid reason for perpetuating it? It's clearly a dig at Clarke and can only be seen as derogatory. PSA and anyone else can just use his given name. The card says J.J. Clarke.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

This world has become way too sensitive.

Tell that to people who continue to suffer the misfortunes of racism in our world. There are billions of people who would disagree.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

It is quite clearly racist without someone else having to read between the lines. After all it was based, indisputably, on his supposedly darker-colored skin. Not much room for interpretation there.

I don't think a single person on this board or in the card collecting business is racist, although there is no doubt such racism still exists. That is not my point. I am merely wondering why we can't let that nickname go -- other than when discussing that player in his historical context. I don't need PSA or anyone to remind me of his nickname and find it absurd that they put that on his flip.

[Joshchisox08]

[QUOTE=arc2q;1404043]You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Yes I imply that it exists if we turn the word into something. Perhaps I had a poor choice of words. I just see it as a nickname to a player, nothing more.

Someone else may see it as racist and start labeling it and go on a rant about it being racist.

My opinion is the person ranting about it being racist is keeping the racism alive. Just mentioning this players nickname to me doesn't make anyone sound racist to myself. It's just that a nickname. Especially the tone of their voice (though hard to tell in text online).

The word is only racist to those who think it is. I myself don't think that it is.

[packs]

Come on man it is well known that he was dubbed "Nig" by other people because they thought his skin was dark. It is not some innocent nickname. It is inherently racist and carries only racist overtones.

The nickname is there forever. But why does PSA need to put it on the flip? His T206 says J.J. Clarke.

[boneheadandrube]

I see Jap Barbeau waving his arms for attention in the background. Next time anyone submits a J.J. please ask for the flip to read "Toby", maybe you can sell it for a premium as a variation.

[deucetwins]

Large Ass Herzog is enjoying this thread.

[z28jd]

I think the logical explanation for "J.J." being on the card is that Josh Clarke was his teammate in 1909, so either Clarke or J. Clarke wouldn't have told them apart. There are no nicknames on any of the cards, so I don't know why he would be different. PSA labels the cards how people are best known and since no one 106 years ago was PC, we have strange nicknames from the set you wouldn't hear now. You can't change how a person WAS known 100+ years after the fact.

BTW, if people want to get technical about nicknames, I think Mordecai Brown was better known as Miner Brown back then, because that is how he is often referred to in the papers. At least that is what I've seen from reading too many newspapers from that era. Not sure when Three Fingers became his accepted name, but it could just be because it stands out more than "Miner", but just like One Arm Daily and all the players nicknamed Dummy, they were being made fun of for their handicap.

I don't think anyone should try to change them now since now it isn't accepted behavior, that would just be lying to yourself about the past.

[trdcrdkid]

No nicknames on any of the cards, you say?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

PSA labels the cards the way they are cataloged.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Pat R

PSA labels the cards the way they are cataloged.

I assume you are referring to the ACC?

I would imagine SGC follows the same catalog in labeling variations and errors. But somehow SGC is smart enough to make an editorial decision and not include Clarke's nickname on their label.

The "that's how we've always done it" argument is not an excuse for PSA or BVG.

[nolemmings]

No he's not referring to the ACC, which would not catalog individual cards. I suspect he's referring to the price guides or online checklists, in which, BTW, some also list Nig Cuppy as part of the Just So set.

[Pat R]

I don't agree with using his nickname on the flip either but I also don't think
it's fair to single out PSA. Long before they started grading cards most
baseball references referred to him by his nickname and still do today.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

No he's not referring to the ACC, which would not catalog individual cards. I suspect he's referring to the price guides or online checklists, in which, BTW, some also list Nig Cuppy as part of the Just So set.

A price guide seems a reflection of how the TPGs label the cards and not an authoritative source of what is standard or proper.

I just don't see a logical argument for perpetuating this offensiveness. His own wife apparently thought the nickname was offensive, surely 100 years later we've arrived at a point where we collectively realize the absurdity of it.

[Thromdog]

Just wanted to point out.....

According to Wikipedia he played for the Atlanta Crackers in 1903.

[Bpm0014]

Haha Jeff! Pretty ironic....

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Just wanted to point out.....

According to Wikipedia he played for the Atlanta Crackers in 1903.

Maybe, just maybe, that is where he earned his nickname. And I have seen some of his signatures as well where someone else earlier in the thread pointed out that he signed often with his nickname included. If he accepted it which he must of based off of his signatures I don't see the issue.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Maybe, just maybe, that is where he earned his nickname. And I have seen some of his signatures as well where someone else earlier in the thread pointed out that he signed often with his nickname included. If he accepted it which he must of based off of his signatures I don't see the issue.

Wait, this is worse. Because he was racist and accepted his obviously racial nickname you are saying we should have no issue with it?

We know better now. Our society has a better sense of racial equality now than we did in 1910. What was acceptable then is not acceptable now.

Because a baseball team in Atlanta had an offensive name does not inversely justify anything. And because Clarke was fine with his own nickname does not make it okay. He was wrong. Baseball was wrong. Our society was wrong then. It is okay to discuss that and to study the role of race in baseball at the turn of the 20th century...but we don't have to perpetuate the racism by continuing to use his nickname as an identifier.

[Joshchisox08]

How would he be racist if he accepted his nickname ? He didn't call himself that. I don't get it apparently. I don't see the issue.

[packs]

The issue is it's superfluous and totally unnecessary to put his nickname on the flip of his cards. The card says J.J. Clarke. You have to go an extra step to put Nig on there. Accepting a nickname is not the same as dismissing it. I highly doubt Dummy Hoy enjoyed being called a dummy. But what can you do when everyone's calling you Dummy?

[clydepepper]

In a way it is sad that this thread has gotten this long, but, conversely, it may be a blessing as civil discussions of such subjects is the best way to handle them.

This forum, where there is a common interest already, can help plant the seeds of enlightenment. While I am a proud conservative, I'm not close-minded on most* subjects. (*- I still like girls exclusively)

Babe Ruth had to endure a similarly insensitive 'moniker', though, thankfully, his did not gain much popularity.

What a difference it would have made if 'Babe' was replaced by 'N*****-lips'.

As crude as life was back then, it would have been very interesting to see if Ruth would have been as popular if he was 'saddled' with that name.

IMHO - While it is better to live in a time when less slurs are used with impunity, it's good to know that many folks have somehow survived and even thrived in spite of them.

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. I will not apologize for any of it and though it was not my purpose to offend anyone, I do realize that there are some who could be.

To anyone who was offended by my words, I'd say, "You're Missing a Good Ballgame."

[rhettyeakley]

This is simple revisionist history, which seems to be all the rage these days.

Why do people call him that? Because that was how he was known during his lifetime (whether you agree with it or not).

This may come as a shock to some but some really crappy things happened in history! Racism, genocide, rape, murder, etc all happened then and some continue to happen to this day. I have no problem with historical events being reinterpreted base upon the framework of our current knowledge and understanding BUT I have major issues with people coming in a century or two later and changing names and places because it "sounds bad" or "that shouldn't have happened that way". The problem with that logic is that IT DID HAPPEN and historical fact should be left alone.

We tend to look at history through the lens of how things are viewed today, which can be very enlightening as it brings to the surface some seemingly strange ways of looking at things but also very unfair to those that lived during that time as well because they didn't have the luxury of living when we are with modern understanding of things like science, race relations, progressive thinking, etc, etc.

My not so humble opinion, leave the historical facts as they are, it will foster dialog in the future as to why things were what they were and can help all to avoid mistakes made in the past. Don't revise history to the point that we repeat past offenses.

[packs]

No one is disputing facts. We're talking about whether or not it's necessary to put his nickname on a flip. Card says J.J. Clarke.

[nolemmings]

Well said, Rhett.

[Joshchisox08]

Does anyone have a J.J Clarke PSA for sale ?

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

My not so humble opinion, leave the historical facts as they are, it will foster dialog in the future as to why things were what they were and can help all to avoid mistakes made in the past. Don't revise history to the point that we repeat past offenses.

Sure, we should leave the historical facts as they are. But you don't need to list his name on the card label, or list his cards on eBay by an ugly nickname when he has a real name.

Someone pointed out earlier that ATC needed to designate him on his card as J.J. Clarke to differentiate him from Josh Clarke who played on the same team. Makes sense. But does that not suggest that even in 1909 ATC knew better than to take the easier road of labeling his card by his racially-insensitive nickname?

The card doesn't even use the nickname...so by what absurd logic do we think that it is right to list his card by the nickname when selling or when displaying it in our living room? The man's name was Jack. Call him Jack or J.J.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

This is simple revisionist history, which seems to be all the rage these days.

You obviously believe revisionist history is always a negative, and that there are no benefits to reevaluation of the historical record. For instance, in 1930 Seattle newspapers discussed the "Seattle Royal Colored Giants", but when writing about the team in 2015, I typically refer to them as the "Seattle Royal Giants". Is that revisionist? Yes, but a way to discuss the topic without referencing and thereby emphasizing negative terminology of the day. It in no way diminishes understanding of the subject. Just my opinion, Ty

[clydepepper]

Well, it looks like it depends on the grader. So, the solution would be to have any PSA & BVG-graded N's re-slabbed by SGC:

NIG PSA.jpg
NIG.jpg
JJ CLARKE SGC.jpg

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

This is simple revisionist history, which seems to be all the rage these days.

I have no problem with historical events being reinterpreted base upon the framework of our current knowledge and understanding...

Ty, you missed this part of my post apparently. No, revisionist history is not always bad, within limits. I see no reason to revise An individual's name that was how he was known throughout the sports world at the time he played the game.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

You obviously believe revisionist history is always a negative, and that there are no benefits to reevaluation of the historical record. For instance, in 1930 Seattle newspapers discussed the "Seattle Royal Colored Giants", but when writing about the team in 2015, I typically refer to them as the "Seattle Royal Giants". Is that revisionist? Yes, but a way to discuss the topic without referencing and thereby emphasizing negative terminology of the day. It in no way diminishes understanding of the subject. Just my opinion, Ty

I guess I am strange because I don't really see the need to edit the name of a sports team from days gone by either. If the team you are referencing wasn't actually known as the Seattle Royal Giants but were in fact they were the Seattle Royal Colored Giants at the time then I don't think you are being very clear nor historically accurate to go and change their name in 2015. You could simply put the name in quotes to indicate that it was an entity known as that and then subsequently refer to them as simply the "Giants" when referencing the team in the article (or whatever you are writing).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I guess I am strange because I don't really see the need to edit the name of a sports team from days gone by either. If the team you are referencing wasn't actually known as the Seattle Royal Giants but were in fact they were the Seattle Royal Colored Giants at the time then I don't think you are being very clear nor historically accurate to go and change their name in 2015. You could simply put the name in quotes to indicate that it was an entity known as that and then subsequently refer to them as simply the "Giants" when referencing the team in the article (or whatever you are writing).

I agree. I think we are so overly-politically correct nowadays that, many times, it has the reverse effect. The more we talk about racism the more there is, so it seems. And I am not saying to push it under the rug, by any means. But at some point it's time remember, address, and move on. Just my half cent....

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I guess I am strange because I don't really see the need to edit the name of a sports team from days gone by either. If the team you are referencing wasn't actually known as the Seattle Royal Giants but were in fact they were the Seattle Royal Colored Giants at the time then I don't think you are being very clear nor historically accurate to go and change their name in 2015. You could simply put the name in quotes to indicate that it was an entity known as that and then subsequently refer to them as simply the "Giants" when referencing the team in the article (or whatever you are writing).

Rhett, excellent point. Using the politically correct logic would we alter the names of these teams so as not to offend the tender sensibilities of those who would find offense where none is intended?

Atlanta Black Crackers, Austin Black Senators
Baltimore Black Sox, Birmingham Black Barons
New York Black Yankees, New York Cubans

[packs]

No offense but I think you guys are missing the point. His name is J.J. Clarke. The card says J.J. Clarke. If it said Nig Clarke that would be one thing. But it doesn't. You have to go an extra step to put Nig on there.

It is obvious to me that the nickname Nig isn't some subtlety of the time. They called him Nig to diminish him and make him feel less than. It's not some antiquated nickname. It was meant to do him harm by insinuating he was a little too dark for comfort. To say the card should be identified as J.J. Clarke is not revisionist history or political correctness, the card says J.J. Clarke.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by packs

No offense but I think you guys are missing the point. His name is J.J. Clarke. The card says J.J. Clarke. If it said Nig Clarke that would be one thing. But it doesn't. You have to go an extra step to put Nig on there.

It is obvious to me that the nickname Nig isn't some subtlety of the time. They called him Nig to diminish him and make him feel less than. It's not some antiquated nickname. It was meant to do him harm by insinuating he was a little too dark for comfort. To say the card should be identified as J.J. Clarke is not revisionist history or political correctness, the card says J.J. Clarke.

Good point, each time you make it. Dan Snyder could not be reached for comment.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

No offense but I think you guys are missing the point. His name is J.J. Clarke. The card says J.J. Clarke. If it said Nig Clarke that would be one thing. But it doesn't. You have to go an extra step to put Nig on there.

It is obvious to me that the nickname Nig isn't some subtlety of the time. They called him Nig to diminish him and make him feel less than. It's not some antiquated nickname. It was meant to do him harm by insinuating he was a little too dark for comfort. To say the card should be identified as J.J. Clarke is not revisionist history or political correctness, the card says J.J. Clarke.

For that matter, J.J. isn't mentioned either. Last names are all that are displayed on T206 cards. Only a few first initials were included.

INHO, the grading companies only add first names to assist in identification and nick-names for the same reason.

I believe a lot more folks would recognize him has Nig Clarke than as J.J. Clarke and certainly more than just Clarke.

Fred Clarke was included in the set but was only F.Clarke on one card and just Clarke on the other.