Advertsing panels / salesman samples

[Footballdude]

I've got these cut cards from the 1957 Topps set, that I believe are from one of the 3-card advertising panels. I find these interesting but have no knowledge about them. Is there anything in print, anywhere, that details advertising panels, or salesman samples? Anyone here have a good knowledge of them?

Things I would love to find out:
What, precisely, was their purpose?
Were they printed along with the production runs of the cards, on the same sheets?
Were they printed on separate sheets, prior to the production runs?
Are there any known, full, uncut advertising panel sheets known?

Like I said, I know absolutely nothing about them, other than they seem to be rather scarce and prices seem to be quite high on them.

[Griffins]

Here is a thread on CU, it's about baseball but would apply to football. I've seen numerous 3 card football panels over the last few years so they do exist. http://forums.collectors.com/message...word1=salesman

[Footballdude]

Thanks for the link. I haven't visited the CU board in quite a few years, but I will keep an eye on that thread as well. Some good info in your post over there.

[obiwin]

Beckett price guide has started cataloging and pricing these advertising panels, listed at the end of the particular sets, and not generally considered part of the complete set. I will note however that Beckett is not yet comprehensive in cataloging these. For example, I have a 1973 Topps football 3 card blank back panel that is not currently listed in Beckett. I've also seen a few others from different years and sports that were also not listed.


The pricing in Beckett seems fairly accurate from what I've seen antecdotally. I saw what Beckett has listed as 1957 Topps football #AD1 go for about $650 or so in an auction a few months ago. Beckett's range is $400-$700 for it.

[obiwin]

Also just noticed that none of the 1957 Topps football cards in the photo you posted are currently cataloged in Beckett....

[Footballdude]

When you say Beckett price guide, are you referring to the monthly guide or the big, yearly book?

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by obiwin

Beckett price guide has started cataloging and pricing these advertising panels, listed at the end of the particular sets, and not generally considered part of the complete set. I will note however that Beckett is not yet comprehensive in cataloging these. For example, I have a 1973 Topps football 3 card blank back panel that is not currently listed in Beckett. I've also seen a few others from different years and sports that were also not listed.


The pricing in Beckett seems fairly accurate from what I've seen antecdotally. I saw what Beckett has listed as 1957 Topps football #AD1 go for about $650 or so in an auction a few months ago. Beckett's range is $400-$700 for it.

Are they listing Salesman Samples or just 3 card panels? Just because it's a 3 card panel doesn't mean it's a salesman sample. Topps didn't issue salesman samples past '67 (other than Heritage inserts that were issued starting in '08) and even during those years panels lacking ad copy just makes it a 3 card panel.

[Exhibitman]

Those are typical of the salesman samples of the era. The only way to establish value is to auction them off. Player collectors are the most likely purchasers for cut down sample cards [I bought a 1964 Koufax on a leaders card cut from a sample] but the guys you have there aren't heavily demanded, so your best bet is to sell them at auction.

[obiwin]

The exact wording that Beckett uses is "Advertising Panel"

@Footballdude: I was referring to Beckett's online price guide, though I just checked my 2010-11 hardcopy annual Beckett, and the 1957 football panels were listed in there.

Originally Posted by Griffins

Are they listing Salesman Samples or just 3 card panels? Just because it's a 3 card panel doesn't mean it's a salesman sample. Topps didn't issue salesman samples past '67 (other than Heritage inserts that were issued starting in '08) and even during those years panels lacking ad copy just makes it a 3 card panel.

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by obiwin

The exact wording that Beckett uses is "Advertising Panel"

@Footballdude: I was referring to Beckett's online price guide, though I just checked my 2010-11 hardcopy annual Beckett, and the 1957 football panels were listed in there.

Ok, that makes sense. The '57's are clearly ad panels, the '73 one described isn't and is just a blank backed panel, so it shouldn't be listed in Beckett as an ad panel.

Adam, you're right, the price for these is all over the place. I've seen them go for $10k (without a key player) and as low as $400, at least on the baseball ones. I was told by an auction house that there are at least 3 deep pocketed collectors putting together a run of these, so the market isn't just limited to player collectors.

[finalscore]

Below are a few of the Football Ad Panels I own. You will find Beckett's listing is incomplete as there are still a number of panels that are unknown or not cataloged.

[Footballdude]

Are there any guesses as to what kind of production numbers there were for these ad panels? They do seem to be rather scarce. I know Topps probably either didn't keep records or they just don't disclose their production numbers, but has anyone ever tried to guess what the population is?

[Footballdude]

Mike, those are fabulous! I love them!

I do have a request. Would it be possible to scan the front and back of the 1963 panel, with the Jim Brown? And, hopefully, with your permission, would it be possible for me to use on my 1963 color variations website? (link below).

[Griffins]

Mike, incredible collection! What years do football run? Topps Baseball is '52-'67, Bowman '54-'55. Did Bowman issue football samples, and did Topps start with the '55 AA's? Did Philly gum issue any?

[finalscore]

Richard, PM me your email address and I will forward you the scans.
Anthøny, the earliest sample I have seen is 1956 Topps. I have not seen a '55 AA but it would make sense a sample might exist. I have Topps FB samples through 1964. What is interesting is for the '62 Football, while I do not own a sample, I do own a pamphlet that was issued advertising the cards to stores and jobbers. I'll see if I can post the image. I have not seen Bowman samples, but have seen a 12 card 1964 Philly sample.

[finalscore]

Here are the images of the four-page 1962 Topps FB pamphlet.


...................................

...................................

...................................

...................................

[jefferyepayne]

Awesome stuff, Mike! Thanks for sharing it.

jeff

[Griffins]

Thanks Mike!

[finalscore]

I found a couple other samples of Topps FB advertising. There was some discussion regarding a 3 card 1973 Topps FB panel. Those panels were not advertising pieces and have been offered for sale by the Topps vault over the years. Here is the '73 advertising panel (heavy glossy paper):



The 1970 Topps FB advertising is similar but with additional ads on the reverse:

[Griffins]

Mike, those look more like sell sheets than ad panels. It's on glossy paper, not card stock, correct? Are there cards printed on the reverse?

[finalscore]

You are correct Anthøny, I would call them sales sheets as well - printed on glossy paper not card stock. The '73 is blank backed and the '70 shows front and back. Thanks!

[skelly]

Kind of a random thought, but you would think that since football lagged behind baseball in the late 50's & early 60's in popularity, there would be more of the football samples in comparison to baseball. My rationale is that topps would need to push the product a little harder than their baseball cards. Also, I've seen all years, but NEVER have I seen a 1962 salesman sample. Do they exist? I also remember there was an auction ( might have been Robert Edwards ) that had like 50 of the 1964 samples in one lot. Surprised these haven't circulated a little better, as you figure that if someone had 30+ of the same sample, they would want to sell some...

[Footballdude]

Since no one really knows the production numbers for Topps products, it is very possible they did indeed print the samples in larger quantities. But, I would also assume that if they did, and they had a bunch left over, they probably would either have been destroyed or warehoused somewhere. If one person did have a large quantity of them, like the 64's you mention, they might have come from a warehouse find somewhere or they might even have walked out their back door "mysteriously" by an employee. It's fun to speculate though.

[Publius]

I found the 57 topps 3 card panels were cut right off the sheets, then the backs were printed with the adds. So perhaps messed up sheets before the backs were run?

I have three of the 3 card salesman samples and all 3 march up with an uncut sheet I have.

[Griffins]

Joe, to print them after they were cut up would mean taking them from a sheet fed press to a letter press for the small run. Doesn't make sense and is really inefficient. And more than 1 color on a letter press is really, really tough. They could've had a small press but why? Easier to do everything on the same one.
I think it's more likely they laid out the front of the sheet as normal, and then laid out the back of the sheet as salesman sample ads, running those first to get them out. Since they were 3 card panels they hand cut them, and then changed the plate for the reverse of the sheet to the standard backs and printed them.

[Publius]

Yep, I said that wrong Anthiny, I agree with you. I think its patterned after the uncut sheets. Maybe an idea was there were sheets that got run on the front and damaged so the un damaged portion with blank unprinted backs got turned into salesman samples, or perhaps they just ran salesman sample sheets on purpose.

Every 3 card sales sample I've seen matches the uncut sheets, but I've seen other years not match up, like Blaisdells 63 Topps

[Exhibitman]

For my money the nicest sample panel design Topps ever put out [and a Marciano RC too]:

[clamendo]

There are at least two 1951 Topps Magic Panels, the one that was in Legendary and I've seen a cut up one that some had that I had to tell the owner what it was. In fact, Jeff the same guy has the uncatalogued 1967 Williams Portrait that you need....so there's a little hint for you!!!

[finalscore]

Adam that is a great piece! Carl, thanks for reminding me about the '51 Topps Magic ad panel. Here is mine, picked up in the late 1980's.

[Griffins]

That is a really nice piece Mike!

[Exhibitman]

Great FB artwork; clearly the same illustrator. Too bad the cards are not all oriented in the same direction. Wonder why they made it that way?

[Footballdude]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Great FB artwork; clearly the same illustrator. Too bad the cards are not all oriented in the same direction. Wonder why they made it that way?

Would it have been because of how the scratch off area is oriented on the reverse of the normal cards?

[nearmint]

Would it have been because of how the scratch off area is oriented on the reverse of the normal cards?

That would be my guess. The scratch-off material went to the bottom edge of the back of each card. By inverting every other row, Topps ensured that the material didn't creep onto the top of the next card if the cards were miscut top-to-bottom.



Topps used the same technique on 1969 sheets. The background color on first series 1969 Topps cards went all the way to the tops and sides of the cards. To allow for slight miscutting, Topps put all of the cards of the same color together on the sheet, and they inverted every other row. You can see that illustrated here.