Should a Authentication Company start grading World Series Programs

[jboosted92]

I thought it might be a good idea....encapsulated..

what do you guys think?

[HRBAKER]

Is there a universally (or close to) accepted grading scale? Do the authenticators have any "experts" on staff? Is there an rampant issue with fakes being sold as authentic? We my as well not stop until we have all hobby related items entombed one way or another, right?

[baseballart]

No, it is not a good idea.

[steve B]

I'd be against it too. If someone really wanted it done, I guess it;s ok, but for me reading it would be lost, as would looking at any scoring that was done. (Feel free to start the "scoring" jokes now that you've had the straight line)

Steve B

[mr2686]

I don't like slabbing, encapsulating, whatever you want to call it...I think I've expressed that enough by now. With that said, one of the joys of collecting WS programs or yearbooks is to be able to look through them...which you couldn't do if sealed up. I also second everything HRBAKER said.

[perezfan]

Good idea! But why stop at Programs? How about entombing Hartlands, Pennants, Bobble Heads, Pinbacks and even Vintage Gloves, Bats and Trophies? There are reproductions of all these things, afterall.

I guess Pinbacks have been slabbed already, but I've never seen a slabbed Lemon Peel Ball or Crescent Padded Glove (and the time seems long overdue!)

Maybe they could even slab/grade some of the older REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunts Catalogues. I have a few that might grade NRMT, and some that I wrote notes in, which should still garner an "authentic" rating. Once slabbed, we wont be able to flip through any of the pages, but they should be worth more money

Seriously, I have no faith in some contrived authentication company having graders that know any more than we do. This Forum should be the authentication source... and it's free!

[barrysloate]

It's nice to be able to read books, programs, and publications. That is part of the joy of owning them. That would be taken away if they are slabbed.

Of course World Series programs have been reprinted, so if you feel you must protect the originals then I guess you can flip the pages of the repros.

But I say bad idea. I'm for less slabbing in the hobby, not more.

[Hankphenom]

"I'm for less slabbing in the hobby, not more."

My sentiments exactly. When you buy anything slabbed, you've bought yourself a slab, not a card, autograph, pin, whatever. If you buy a graded slab, you've bought a grade. There are other ways to authenticate items, and this is one of the worst ways anybody could have come up with. As for programs, aren't comic books slabbed routinely, so why not, even if you can't read them? But now this brings us closer to the heart of the matter, which is that slabbing classic antiques is inherently ridiculous, including baseball cards. But hey, go ahead and slab yourselves silly if you want to, I won't be joining in the "fun."
Hank Thomas

[barrysloate]

Hank- one difference regarding comic books is they were made with poor quality acidic paper. Those really shouldn't be handled as over time they will begin to deteriorate. World Series programs, however, were usually made with good quality paper. No reason why one can't handle them carefully and not compromise their condition.

[Ladder7]

Slabbing would preserve what you have for long-term, safe storage and add legitimacy to our memorabilia when leaving it to an heir who may be ignorant of its' significance.

After all. How many self-professed baseball fans have we all met that had ever heard of Harry Wright, Cap Anson, Alexander Cartwright, Elysian Fields, Royal Rooters and the countless other legends in our collections? Steve

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hank- one difference regarding comic books is they were made with poor quality acidic paper. Those really shouldn't be handled as over time they will begin to deteriorate. World Series programs, however, were usually made with good quality paper. No reason why one can't handle them carefully and not compromise their condition.

Good point, Barry. I'm certainly not opposed to protecting and careful handling of my collectibles, and you can do that without entombing them for eternity. My main point is that comics were made to be read, and to eliminate that possibility for the sake of slabbing seems contrary to my idea of enjoying collectibles. Is it enough just to OWN old things, now, without any meaningful interaction with them? Buy them, put them in storage, and call yourself a collector? Get the highest graded, and without knowing the first thing about your stuff, you're the best collector? What a concept! I just don't see where it ends. Take bobbin' head dolls, a very active area of our hobby. There you have all the ingredients for slabbing to take over: issues of damage and restoration, a serious need for protection, etc. Everybody OK with getting all your bobbin heads slabbed in a sealed cylinder? And to those whose only interest in the hobby is money and investment, I say: please go find something else to corrupt.

[jbsports33]

Photos are okay, but you start getting into the paper type stuff I really do not think it would be a good idea. There is a company that does magazines, so if you really wanted to they may be able to work with you on the WS programs

Jimmy

[barrysloate]

It's probably an excellent idea to slab the great comic book rarities- I wouldn't want to be handling a Superman #1 or any other six figure item, but if I bought a comic for $25 or $50 I would want to be able to read it.

I guess with any area of collecting the more valuable an item, the less you want to handle it. If you dog ear a $25 comic, you're out five bucks. If you read Superman #1 in the bath tub and it slips and falls in...OOPS!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Good idea! But why stop at Programs? How about entombing Hartlands, Pennants, Bobble Heads, Pinbacks and even Vintage Gloves, Bats and Trophies? There are reproductions of all these things, afterall.

I guess Pinbacks have been slabbed already, but I've never seen a slabbed Lemon Peel Ball or Crescent Padded Glove (and the time seems long overdue!)

Maybe they could even slab/grade some of the older REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunts Catalogues. I have a few that might grade NRMT, and some that I wrote notes in, which should still garner an "authentic" rating. Once slabbed, we wont be able to flip through any of the pages, but they should be worth more money

Seriously, I have no faith in some contrived authentication company having graders that know any more than we do. This Forum should be the authentication source... and it's free!

Bravo for this post and amen, brother.
The slabbing will get out of hand at one point.
Look at comic books. I understand why some people want to slab their comics, but as so many have already said, how can you read a slabbed book.
And reading through a program is one of the joys of owning it.
Enough with the plastic tombs already, enough.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

It's probably an excellent idea to slab the great comic book rarities- I wouldn't want to be handling a Superman #1 or any other six figure item, but if I bought a comic for $25 or $50 I would want to be able to read it.

I guess with any area of collecting the more valuable an item, the less you want to handle it. If you dog ear a $25 comic, you're out five bucks. If you read Superman #1 in the bath tub and it slips and falls in...OOPS!

Barry - After reading your post, I had a visual of a collector reading a rare comic book in the bathtub and it is troubling me to no end. What a sight. Thanks a lot for the post .

[Bridwell]

Slabbing a program or booklet is silly because nobody can see what's on the pages inside once it's entombed. It would protect it, but it would be hard to resell later because I'm not sure anyone would invest in an expensive program without being able to view the inside pages.

Having said this, I don't collect World Series Programs because I can't tell the originals from the fakes. I would have to rely on the reputation of the auction house or seller. So I see your dilemma.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

I don't collect World Series Programs because I can't tell the originals from the fakes. I would have to rely on the reputation of the auction house or seller. So I see your dilemma.

Gosh, Ron, we certainly wouldn't want you to ever have to rely on the reputation of an auction house or a dealer. But then, I guess you go to any old dentist or car repair shop that's convenient, don't you? There is zero problem in the hobby of publication fraud that I'm aware of. The Opie world series reprints are clearly identified as such inside, and those and the few other repros (several negro league pubs come to mind) I've seen are obvious in a casual perusal by anyone who has handled much old paper by the lack of toning and clarity of the print. In other words, the old paper area of the hobby is quite safe to jump into should you be so inclined, in my opinion.

[Bridwell]

Hank, I do a lot of buying on ebay, so that's why I don't buy WS Programs that way. I feel it's more difficult to determine the legitimacy of a paper item that has been reprinted unless I can see it in person or if its authenticated by a major auction house or dealer that I trust.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

Hank, I do a lot of buying on ebay, so that's why I don't buy WS Programs that way. I feel it's more difficult to determine the legitimacy of a paper item that has been reprinted unless I can see it in person or if its authenticated by a major auction house or dealer that I trust.

OK, I'm just saying that there are other areas, pennants for example, that I have more concerns with. And doesn't eBay require reprints to be identified as such? But we all have a different level of possible trouble we're willing to put up with in our purchases, so I understand. A good reason to buy from reputable auction houses and dealers, by the way.

[David Atkatz]

Jesus Christ! Can't people live without having every artifact they own entombed in plastic and "vetted" by self-proclaimed "experts"?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Jesus Christ! Can't people live without having every artifact they own entombed in plastic and "vetted" by self-proclaimed "experts"?

We'll get the answer to that when they slab the Shroud of Turin!

[GrayGhost]

You can't slab everything. Part of the joy of the hobby is to be able to "look at things". You can still do that, without hurting condition and all, without them being entombed forever. Lets just put a b ig bubble over everything.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Good idea! But why stop at Programs? How about entombing Hartlands, Pennants, Bobble Heads, Pinbacks and even Vintage Gloves, Bats and Trophies? There are reproductions of all these things, afterall.

I guess Pinbacks have been slabbed already, but I've never seen a slabbed Lemon Peel Ball or Crescent Padded Glove (and the time seems long overdue!)

Maybe they could even slab/grade some of the older REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunts Catalogues. I have a few that might grade NRMT, and some that I wrote notes in, which should still garner an "authentic" rating. Once slabbed, we wont be able to flip through any of the pages, but they should be worth more money

Seriously, I have no faith in some contrived authentication company having graders that know any more than we do. This Forum should be the authentication source... and it's free!

I'm all for the idea of slabbing REA, Mastro, Lelands and Hunts catalogs. Think of what great doorstops or boat anchors they would make! Let's stop the madness....

[nolemmings]

Count me as one who has no problem slabbing programs. I don't collect them really, but did land this one, slabbed as NM by GAI (pardon the poor cropping--the entire holder would not fit the scanner)


I once won a '65 World Series program (LA) on ebay that looked and was advertised nm-mt. When it arrived, it was absolutely pristine. No way it was ever fully read, maybe hardly/not at all. As geeky as this might sound, I didn't enjoy it because I didn't want to put any kind of stress on the binding or inadvertent crimp on the cover or a page. Bottom line, it remains in a plastic sheet, and would be slabbed if I could find a decent service. I will buy a beater if I want to read that program-- in this case, at least, it is simply not scarce.

I believe that there is nothing wrong with trying to preserve an older item, especially one that is in unusually strong condition. I know that seems antithetical to enjoying the item, and it is, but I have no problem understanding a collector's motivation in having it slabbed.

[David Atkatz]

Of course there's "nothing wrong" with trying to preserve an item; in fact, it is your responsibility as a collector to do precisely that. But all you need do is go to any responsible dealer in archival preservation materials--University Products, for example--and you'll find a wealth of items that will enable that preservation, without paying a self-proclaimed expert to "authenticate" it.
It will be preserved as museums preserve their pieces.

When have you ever seen a slabbed piece at the Hall of Fame--or any other museum, for that matter?

Take the responsibility for your own collection--both authentication, and preservation. And grading? Simply an absurd concept when it comes to historical artifacts. They are what they are.

[nolemmings]

That's fine, preserve it as you see fit. However, I also see no problem with someone, if interested in high condition programs, being able to purchase them sight unseen in a slabbed state, assuming there are at least some universal standards applied. Just because an ebay seller tells me his program is nm, I shouldn't have to take his word for it, and while he may have several scans, it isn't always apparent if a page has a slight tear or fold, or there is writing of some kind, or maybe even if it has been restapled. Again I don't collect these much at all, and certainly not with an eye toward high condition, but I do not understand why people should not be able to have that option.

Moreover, I disagree that grading here is "simply an absurd concept". Baseball cards are as much "historical artifacts" as programs, and grading is widely accepted in that medium.

I do understand the practical difficulties in buying a graded item whose interior cannot be inspected without destroying the slab, as one is taking it on faith that the interior was properly examined and evaluated. Perhaps there is a way with dealing with such condition that provides an acceptable level of comfort to buyers. Still and again, the concept of graded programs is not offensive to me.

[barrysloate]

Todd- do you know if the grading service put that program in mylar before they sealed it? Mylar is just about the best possible plastic for storing, and is widely used. It's hard to tell from the picture. If they don't, a collector could do a better job himself by placing the program in a mylar sleeve and then sliding it into hard plastic. That preserves it better and still leaves you the option of reading it if you want. It's win-win.

I do however understand the argument that if you want to buy programs over the internet, this gives you some assurance.

[David Atkatz]

When museum curators--the real experts in artifact conservation--start having their artifacts graded and slabbed, I will, too.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Todd- do you know if the grading service put that program in mylar before they sealed it? Mylar is just about the best possible plastic for storing, and is widely used.

I'm sure they didn't. They don't seem to use mylar for anything, instead favoring polyethylene and acrylic.

I'd like to see one example of a grading "service" using mylar.

[barrysloate]

Polyethelene may be okay for short term storage, but I'm not so sure for long term. Am I correct ?

[nolemmings]

Barry, I think there is mylar there, but I'll have to check--it's offsite. I agree that mylar is preferable, and I use it for the few programs I own.

I could fairly easily be persuaded to crack open the GAI program and store it in the more "normal" manner. I'm not in love with the materials or design that GAI chose. Again, I simply felt comfortable as to the program's condition when I bought it on ebay. I wondered if there would be growth in demand for "slabbed" (it's actually more flexible than the rigid plastic used for cards)programs, so I left it as is. I wish there were more slabbed programs out there, as it would assist my buying decisions, but I would not be averse to thereafter finding a different way of displaying and enjoying them.

[Leon]

Can anyone imagine buying a million dollar coin (and there are plenty of them) and not having it already be graded?

Slabbing has probably saved me 50k or more over the years.....as the raw cards I sent in, after buying, came back with some sort of alteration. I always get a guarantee of a numerical grade when I buy higher end cards (when the card is raw).

[barrysloate]

A million dollar coin has to be graded. You have no choice. But a fifty dollar program? It's a matter of preference.