Deadball Player Skill???

[usernamealreadytaken]

Did you ever notice looking at old deadball-era player photos that the players appear amateur-ish in their skills? I mean the way they hold the bat, bunt, swing? Just an observation.

[ullmandds]

I think the way players held bats back then...hands apart at times...was because the game was different and placing the batted ball where you wanted was more prevalent than going for the home run. I'm sure the caliber of play has improved over the years...as in any games evolution.

[milkit1]

This is why it was called the deadball era. The ball was dead. if you gripped the bat back then to hit a home run the way they do know, chances are youd pop it to shallow center. Also, most pictures from the time are posed. There are action shots but they could only be done from third base or first base line due to lack of zoom.

[T206Collector]

The Pre-War game is a lot closer than you think --

Jamie Moyer played against...
Pete Rose who played against...
Yogi Berra who played against...
Red Ruffing who played against...
Ty Cobb.

4 degrees of separation from Moyer to Cobb! Can anyone do better?!

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The Pre-War game is a lot closer than you think --

Jamie Moyer played against...
Pete Rose who played against...
Yogi Berra who played against...
Red Ruffing who played against...
Ty Cobb.

4 degrees of separation from Moyer to Cobb! Can anyone do better?!

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

Bummer. The engine couldn't find a connection between Wagner and Ripken.

Bill

[familytoad]

I think Milkit hit it out of the park, that the photos don't reflect the action shots... but also that almost all of the players were "hit 'em where they ain't" rather than hit it over the fence. A worn out, deadball surely didn't help.

A different style of skill for sure...more of a Rod Carew, Ichiro thing than a Rob Deer,Steve Balboni style.

In some respects, that old deadball style had more of the "thinking man's" element than later years...of course some might argue that these players were often playing with "Waner's flask" in the hip pocket so maybe there is a reason they look less athletic
Call it the "drinking man's game"

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

For the record, while I used BBRef to help me with some of the older players that played the game, I did not use the ORACLE!

[M's_Fan]

I would agree that the players may seem unskilled because the game was just so different then. Comparing a Ty Cobb to Albert Pujols, and it seems like the players today are more athletic, bigger, and skilled. However, when you compare, for example, Ty Cobb or Willie Keeler to Ichiro, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. In other words, you have to compare apples to apples.

Not only is the game generally different today, more importantly it is very specialized, every position and spot in the batting order has a very tight category and role. The Ty Cobbs that dominated the deadball era would be stars today, but they would likely be batting 1st or 2nd rather than 3rd or cleanup.

Likewise, some of the famous starting pitchers of the deadball era would categorized as relievers and closers if they were to play today. We could argue this all day, but I think of all around pitchers like Mathweson and Johnson as starters, and one-two pitch specialists like Mordecai Brown as closers. And personalities like Rube Waddell would be the John Rockers bullpen types of today. Its all fun to think about....

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

I would agree that the players may seem unskilled because the game was just so different then. Comparing a Ty Cobb to Albert Pujols, and it seems like the players today are more athletic, bigger, and skilled. However, when you compare, for example, Ty Cobb or Willie Keeler to Ichiro, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. In other words, you have to compare apples to apples.

Not only is the game generally different today, more importantly it is very specialized, every position and spot in the batting order has a very tight category and role. The Ty Cobbs that dominated the deadball era would be stars today, but they would likely be batting 1st or 2nd rather than 3rd or cleanup.

Likewise, some of the famous starting pitchers of the deadball era would categorized as relievers and closers if they were to play today. We could argue this all day, but I think of all around pitchers like Mathweson and Johnson as starters, and one-two pitch specialists like Mordecai Brown as closers. And personalities like Rube Waddell would be the John Rockers bullpen types of today. Its all fun to think about....

There is no doubt that the players of today are bigger, stronger, and faster than those in past eras. Babe Ruth was considered a giant among players at the time. He would be below average size today. The biggest difference is among pitchers. Modern pitchers are 5-6 inches taller and 40-50 lbs. heavier than those in even the 1920's and 1930's.

This isn't just baseball, but any sport, and, in fact, life in general. Sports that are measurable (e.g.- Track & Field, Swimming) bear this out.

But you can olny compare players against those they played against in their day. The greatest players of their day will always be great players.


Edit: I just did a quick comparison of the 1927 Yankees and the 2009 Yankees. The average starting, position player in 1927 was 6'0", 185 lbs. In 2009 the average starter was 6'2", 209 lbs. (Babe Ruth and Hideki Matsui are about the same size.)

The average of their 5 main pitchers in 1927 was 5'11", 175 lbs. In 2009 those numbers were 6'5" and 239 lbs.

[ctownboy]

Here is my take on this subject;

The differences mostly have to do with the baseball.

Back then, the baseballs were softer than they are today. Then you start adding in factors like:

1) they only used a few balls a game (thus making the mushy balls even mushier).

2) those balls got stained with grass and dirt so they weren't as easy to see as a clean white ball.

3) the balls got nicked and scuffed thus allowing the pitcher to get different grips and more movement on their pitches.

4) the spit ball was still legal.

So, a batter back then might be trying to hit a mushy, mud stained ball with small cuts and spit on it and be attempting to do so at dusk. I don't think that would be too easy to do even if the pitchers were only throwing 70 MPH.

Things changed after Ray Chapman was hit and killed. Offenses (Home Run hitters) were the recipients of this good luck while slap.contact Singles hitters were made less relevant.

On top of all of that, fields back then were not as well groomed as today and the gloves were MUCH smaller. So, it made ALL the sense in the world to try and just make contact and put the ball in to play instead of just swinging with everything they had like a lot of batters do today.

A slow, defensively challenged, strike out prone player like Adam Dunn would NOT have very much of a chance to make the Major Leagues back then because his skill set did NOT match up well with the type of play. Today, he gets paid millions of dollars for basically being a beer league soft ball player.

David

[ElCabron]

The Oracle just does a chain of teammates, not "played against."

-Ryan

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Here is my take on this subject;

The differences mostly have to do with the baseball.

Back then, the baseballs were softer than they are today. Then you start adding in factors like:

1) they only used a few balls a game (thus making the mushy balls even mushier).

2) those balls got stained with grass and dirt so they weren't as easy to see as a clean white ball.

3) the balls got nicked and scuffed thus allowing the pitcher to get different grips and more movement on their pitches.

4) the spit ball was still legal.

So, a batter back then might be trying to hit a mushy, mud stained ball with small cuts and spit on it and be attempting to do so at dusk. I don't think that would be too easy to do even if the pitchers were only throwing 70 MPH.

Things changed after Ray Chapman was hit and killed. Offenses (Home Run hitters) were the recipients of this good luck while slap.contact Singles hitters were made less relevant.

On top of all of that, fields back then were not as well groomed as today and the gloves were MUCH smaller. So, it made ALL the sense in the world to try and just make contact and put the ball in to play instead of just swinging with everything they had like a lot of batters do today.

A slow, defensively challenged, strike out prone player like Adam Dunn would NOT have very much of a chance to make the Major Leagues back then because his skill set did NOT match up well with the type of play. Today, he gets paid millions of dollars for basically being a beer league soft ball player.

David

David,

All are very valid points and all contribute to the differences in the game. But in 1927, the World record in the 100 Meters was 10.4 seconds. It's now 9.58. That's an improvement of 7.9%, before we even account for Electronic Timing differences.

In the Shot Put the World record in 1927 was just under 51'. It's now 75' 10 3/4". That's an improvement of 48.8% (Also indicative of a steroid problem, as that record has stood for almost 20 years.)

We are bigger, stronger and faster than we used to be. (I, on the other hand, seem to be bigger, stronger, and much slower.)

[rhettyeakley]

Certainly a lot different then and now, but I wouldn't read too much into the difference in the 100 meters. As a former sprinter myself the equipment and tracks being used alone can account for a significant difference in the overall speed. Also, better technique, full year training, full time coaches...and potential juice problems also come into play.

One thing that wouldn't have changed from then to now is natural talent. Just like a Billy Wagner could somehow hit 100 mph it isn't outside the realm of possibilties that some of these guys (even then) were just kinda freaks.

-Rehtt

[prewarsports]

I would argue that Baseball was a MORE skilled game in the deadball era whereas this argument obviously can not be made for any other sport. Here are my reasonings:

1. Throwing a baseball fast is a god-given talent and not a skill that can be learned or enhanced by wiehgts. If 5' 9" Billy Wagner can throw 100 mph now, what is there to really think that pitchers like Walter Johnson could not do it 100 years ago. Factor in the spitball and other deadball tricks, I think it was harder to hit a ball 100 years ago than today.

2. 100 years ago there was no TV, IPODS, Basketball, hockey, Pop Waner Football, Video Games etc to compete for kids free time attention, kids played Baseball all day everyday. Today even skilled ballplayers would have a fraction of the time that kids did 100 years ago under their belt. They knew the game better.

3. There was only a fraction of the teams 100 years ago as compared to today so the talent pool was not spread nearly as thin, and this does not even include the exluded players because of their race.

These are just my thoughts but I think a stronger case can be made for their being BETTER Baseball skill 100 years ago than today. The game is different, but not that much. Players today would have a harder time hitting 1910 pitching than 1910 hitters would have hitting todays pitchers!

Rhys

[Mark]

I was thinking what Rhys said. And he said it well. We sometimes get caught up in the idea that everything is always making progress, but if you look at the craftsmanship of old furniture and at classical music and art, you can see that newer isn't necessarily better. If Waddell could strike out 349 batters in one year in the deadball inside baseball era, he must have been fast.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I would argue that Baseball was a MORE skilled game in the deadball era whereas this argument obviously can not be made for any other sport. Here are my reasonings:

1. Throwing a baseball fast is a god-given talent and not a skill that can be learned or enhanced by wiehgts. If 5' 9" Billy Wagner can throw 100 mph now, what is there to really think that pitchers like Walter Johnson could not do it 100 years ago. Factor in the spitball and other deadball tricks, I think it was harder to hit a ball 100 years ago than today.

2. 100 years ago there was no TV, IPODS, Basketball, hockey, Pop Waner Football, Video Games etc to compete for kids free time attention, kids played Baseball all day everyday. Today even skilled ballplayers would have a fraction of the time that kids did 100 years ago under their belt. They knew the game better.

3. There was only a fraction of the teams 100 years ago as compared to today so the talent pool was not spread nearly as thin, and this does not even include the exluded players because of their race.

These are just my thoughts but I think a stronger case can be made for their being BETTER Baseball skill 100 years ago than today. The game is different, but not that much. Players today would have a harder time hitting 1910 pitching than 1910 hitters would have hitting todays pitchers!

Rhys

Actually point 3 isn't quite right. The club I'm in had Lenny Merullo speak a few years ago. One thing he brought up was the overall numbers of people involved in organised baseball. It was more in the context of whether certain problem players would have been kept in the big leagues when he played.
The numbers he had were - About 17,500 players now in all levels of pro ball. And about 175,000 when he played. His numbers may be a bit skewed, because he counted a only "professional" baseball, meaning college was out, but industrial leagues were in. I think it still shows a very deep pool of natural talent. As he put it , if you weren't a Williams or DiMaggio you'd better be likeable and not a nuisance come contract time, because they could replace an average player very easily. he played in the 30's -40's but I can't imagine that aspect of the game being that much different from the deadball era.

Steve

[rhettyeakley]

Steve, you are actually making his point for him. When Rhys said there were only a fraction of the teams then he was speaking ONLY of the Major Leagues, as the Minor League system during that time period was everywhere, any city with a decent population had a minor league ballclub. In that time period there were only 16 teams in the "majors". The rosters of those 16 teams were also not as large as they are today.

Thus, there were perhaps 10X the number of organized players competing during that time period for only half the number of teams with smaller rosters. I think this is what Rhys was getting at w/ #3. Even taking into consideration the "excluded" players from the Negro Leagues there were more people trying to get to the majors then.

-Rhett

[milkit1]

I'd live to see the mlb outlaw batting helmets and legalise all illegal pitching just to see all these "naturally talented" new players averages plummit. Cobb hit over 400 and probably couldn't even see the ball half the time. Maybe that would be a good punishment to steroid users! Make them earn that money!

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by milkit1

I'd live to see the mlb outlaw batting helmets and legalise all illegal pitching just to see all these "naturally talented" new players averages plummit. Cobb hit over 400 and probably couldn't even see the ball half the time. Maybe that would be a good punishment to steroid users! Make them earn that money!

These days batters can crowd the plate without any consequence, and the pitcher gets fined for throwing inside. It has DRAMATICALLY changed the game.

We also haven't mentioned the lowering of the pitching mound in modern times, which has also tilted the playing field towards the batter.

No doubt players are bigger and stronger today, and in some ways more skilled, but there are many many advantages that modern batters have that dead ball batters did not have.

[steve B]

Thanks Rhett. Re reading it I think you're right. I initially read it a bit differently Thinking he meant that the exclusion meant fewer players.

Sorry Rhys.

And one of the things that impresses me about the early players is their feilding percentages using the gloves of the time. I've had a catch or two with a 20's glove and its much different and to me much harder than with a modern glove.

Steve B

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Great points throughout the thread. While researching deadball era photos one major factor that stands out to me is the quality of the playing surface. Most of the best fields look worse than todays little league fields.

Watering systems were anemic as was grass study. I can only imagine how crude the mowers were in those days. From what I have read the grounds crew usually consisted of one man who hopefully had a son or two to help. There are several references to the head groundskeeper and his family LIVING in the stadium!

Along with era gloves I think the fielding percentages are actually amazing.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think the way players held bats back then...hands apart at times...was because the game was different and placing the batted ball where you wanted was more prevalent than going for the home run. I'm sure the caliber of play has improved over the years...as in any games evolution.

I recently read a book about Walter Johnson - Baseball's Big Train by Henry Thomas (whom I believe is a board member) and the section on his speed relative to both other deadball ptichers of the era and modern pitchers was very interesting. I need to preface the following by saying that the mehtods of measuring Johnson's speed - although electronic - were done at a gun range, in street clothes and in a manner which forced him to pitch in an unorthodox manner to hit the target required to measure his speed.

On pg. 105 Thomas details how in October of 1912 Johnson went to the Remington Arms gun range to settle some of the debate brought about by FC Lane (editor of Baseball Magazine) and the frequent discussion about how much faster Walter Johnson pitched than other deadball pitchers. The test also included Nap Rucker, who was purported to be the fastest pitcher in the NL.

At length, the testers had difficulty accomodating Johnsons side arm delivery such that the baseball would travel through a wire timing apparatus and hit a steel plate some distance away. After numerous adjustments, while in street clothes, with various adjustments to his normal delivery, they got a several readings. The method and manner in which the tests were done most certainly affected the speed at which he was able to pitch. The speed of the baseball going through the trip wires was measured at 82 MPH; while Nap Ruckers was measured at 75.9 MPH.

Most certainly Johnson pitched faster than this in game situations - but being able to pitch almost 8% faster than other pitchers of that era, certainly is impressive.

In June of 1933, Lefty Gomez and Van Mungo, purported to be two of the fastest pitchers of the '30's, were tested at West Point presumably with more modern equipment. Mungo registered in at the same as Ruckers (75.9 MPH) and Gomez came in at a shade under 75 MPH.

- M Wheat

[ethicsprof]

Looking at my T222 Lapp and seeing that huge,floppy catcher's mitt, i'm so amazed at how well the players did their job with such limited resources compared to the modern day.
I must say i somehow prefer the limited resources and the giftedness of their
gameplaying over most everything modern.
best,
barry

[SteveMitchell]

Just a quick note of thanks for all who posted on this subject. I really enjoyed reading the arguments on all sides.

The small change in raw speed (100 meters time) over many years really caught my eye. As a high school freshman my school had a rolled cinders track that wasn't much good even for the early sprint events and was soup by the end of the meet. Spikes were quite heavy (lead weights would not be a completely unfair description) even as late as the 1960's - especially compared with the featherlights of the past few decades.

All in all, I'm quite convinced that the deadball era's players were men of significant accomplishment within the rules and limitations of their day, and certainly worthy of being called Major Leaguers. Today's game still has appeal for me - though I don't look forward to opening day as I once did - due to the over-exposure, detailed analysis and cheating (especially steroids).

For me, the dedication of Lawrence S. Ritter's classic The Glory of Their Times applies:

"This book is dedicated to the men who live within its pages. . . 'All these were honored in their generation, And were the glory of their times. Ecclesiasticus 44:7'"

[prewarsports]

As a former College Baseball player myself and someone who has faced 93-97 MPH Fastballs in my time, I can assure you that being able to throw a Baseball fast is a gift and not really a developed talent. I have met kids with no formal baseball coaching and no weight training programs and who lived off of Hostess cupcakes and Mt. Dew who could hit 90+ MPH on a radar gun. They were just born with the ability. I think it would be extremely ethnocentric to believe that similar guys 100 years ago could not do the same thing.

I am 100% convinced that Walter Johnson and Bob Feller and most likely even Amos Rusie could throw as fast as anyone today, 95-100 mph.

For Example, I went to a Seattle Mariners game a few years ago and Brandon Morrow was pitching. Skinny 19-20 year old kid with pimples still on his face. He got up to the mound and shot several pitches at 103 MPH on the stadium gun. Whether he was born in 1990 or 1890, that kid would be pitching the same speed because he was not the product of modern science (his arms looked like skinny garden hoses). He was just born with the ability to throw a 100 MPH fastball. Maybe coaches and conditioners helped him harness his God given ability by 5 MPH, but nothing modern made that Fastball go from 80-103 MPH.

Just my thoughts

Rhys


Rhys