What is the origin of Frank Thomas NNOF?

[West]

There was discussion earlier about whether Topps farmed out printing to other print shops. We can now say with 100% certainty that the entirety of the 1990 Topps set was printed at the facility in Duryea.

------
"Only 100 cards were made, and they were all presented to President Bush,'' Topps spokesman Ken Liss said.

Yet Hull said he found one in a wax pack.

Liss said that was impossible, because the regular baseball cards were printed in Duryea, Pa., and the president's cards were printed in New York. Topps has demanded that Hull return the card, but he has refused.
------

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...5&slug=1059335

[Rich Klein]

On a side note; we discovered there were actually "200" George Bush 1990 Topps cards issued when another 100 emerged into the market a couple of years ago. They were printed a bit differently. I do think a few Bush cards snuck into packs.

Rich

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I'm not sure that rules out other locations. If the majority of the cards were printed in Duryea, there's no reason for Liss to qualify his statement by mentioning other places. He's making a general point and brevity is usually the go-to weapon of choice.

Also, I'd be surprised if Liss was with Topps in 1990.

Arthur

[Rich Klein]

LISS *Was* the PR Person for Topps in 1990. The Liss family was not replaced till late 1991 early 1992 by Bob Ibach and Timm Boyle.

Regards
Rich

[West]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

I'm not sure that rules out other locations. If the majority of the cards were printed in Duryea, there's no reason for Liss to qualify his statement by mentioning other places. He's making a general point and brevity is usually the go-to weapon of choice.

Also, I'd be surprised if Liss was with Topps in 1990.

Arthur

It would have been very unwise for Liss, as PR man for a large publicly traded company, to lie to the media when commenting on a lawsuit. The statement does not 100% prove the cards were printed in Duryea, but it's as close as you can get to an acknowledgement of that fact.

The Topps Archives blog has done the best detective work figuring out who printed what for Topps.

link-
http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...ters-link.html

According to the blog, Topps had been doing some of its own printing in house starting in 1965. There were several outside printers that Topps used in the vintage era - Lord Baltimore Press in Baltimore, Zabel Bros in Philadelphia, Stecher-Traung in NY and CT, Chromographic Press and A. Hoen & Co in Baltimore.

Chromographic went under in 1971. A Hoen in '81, Zabel in '82 and Stecher-Traung in '85. Lord Baltimore was done with Topps by 1960.

I have one source that says Topps began outsourcing printing in 1994 and their first annual report confirms that several years later. That gives us a window from the early '80s to 1994 where Topps could have printed the entirety of its product at the facility in Duryea.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I'm not saying that Liss was lying. I'm saying that he wasn't being directly asked how many locations did they print the 1990 issue in. He was being asked about the Bush card so inconsequential information to the point he was addressing wouldn't have been brought up by him. His point was simply that the Bush card was printed in a separate place from the 1990 issue.

For the sake of argument, let's say 85% of 1990 Topps was printed in Duryea and the remaining 15% wasn't printed in New York. There's no reason, and no reasonable expectation, for Liss to mention where that other 15% was printed in the context of the Bush conversation.

Not to mention that he already proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement.

All I'm saying is that his comment serves to purpose in furthering or disspelling any theory.

Arthur

[West]

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.
Looks like a legit card to me.

Looks real to me too; maybe it got a heavy blue color pass or something so the name is partially showing up. Kind of like the 1982 Blackless"ing" cards that had some black ink on the card. If it's a real 1990 Topps card, I have no problem calling it a NNOF error. Maybe BGS or SGC will holder it.

[swarmee]

*double post; hate this computer*

[steve B]

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

I've looked at a bunch of stuff, and I think it's real too. I also have it on good authority that fading black without fading the surrounding ink is very difficult.


I actually can't figure out for sure what caused it.


The others are almost certainly from a big bit of debris, probably tape obstructing the plate while it was being exposed.

If it wasn't then, the next likely problem is a bit of debris in the press preventing that part of the plate from being inked. But the most common of those would be a bit of paper, which of course gets inked, transfers, and looks totally different.

Maybe a bit of saran wrap type stuff? That should take ink too, but might not. Usually to repel ink the obstruction has to also hold enough water.

Most stuff like that is very transient, not usually hundreds or 1000+ impressions.


If it's something blocking the inking, then this could be within the first few impressions. Maybe in the first 5? I have a card that has an additional 4 uninked impressions, so it can extend that many at least.


But there doesn't seem to be a shadow of the border, which I'd think should be there.

I can't think there was enough damage that a strip of plate got ripped out. With the pressure required, I'd think the underlying cylinder would have been inked but printed poorly.


It could be a different blue plate that for some reason had the name on it when the rest didn't. That would be pretty strange, but then, it's Topps...

Fortunately, the card has clues!
There's a line from what's probably a plate scratch right near the left of the name plate. If it's an on-press obstruction, there should be cards with the same line.
Unless the plate got changed right after the obstruction.

And Topps wasn't great with registration, if the blue plates ever had the name on them, there should be cards misregistered showing a blue shadow of the name alongside the black printed name.

[Rdelmonico]

Is the NNOF semi transparentlike a tiffany????

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

[West]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

I'm not saying that Liss was lying. I'm saying that he wasn't being directly asked how many locations did they print the 1990 issue in. He was being asked about the Bush card so inconsequential information to the point he was addressing wouldn't have been brought up by him. His point was simply that the Bush card was printed in a separate place from the 1990 issue.

For the sake of argument, let's say 85% of 1990 Topps was printed in Duryea and the remaining 15% wasn't printed in New York. There's no reason, and no reasonable expectation, for Liss to mention where that other 15% was printed in the context of the Bush conversation.

Not to mention that he already proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement.

All I'm saying is that his comment serves to purpose in furthering or disspelling any theory.

Arthur

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

[Rich Klein]

The 100 George Bush cards was what was officially noted in 1990 as being produced. The second hundred (sheet of 100) which surfaced were not known until they hit the market place and were produced differently than the 100 known Bush cards.

Now, Ken Liss and his family were not regarded as good PR people in 1990 BUT in this case, they accurately mentioned what Topps had told them.

The Bush question is a good sideshow but not germane to the Thomas discussion at this time.

Makes a better subject itself

Rich

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by West

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

You're correct and I misspoke when I said his memory was wrong.

I can't explain it any better than my previous 85% analogy. This is certainly a significant piece of circumstantial evidence but it by no means puts the issue to bed, like you suggested earlier.

Arthur

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by West

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.