POLL: IN or OUT: YES or NO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian, thanks for the response, but I think you've put yourself on a slippery slope, when you say (as I understand you) your objection to cheating depends on what you perceive as the degree of impact. And unless I missed it you didn't address greenies which, I repeat, were illegal to use without a prescription after 1970 or so. I infer you think they were more like pat-a-cake too?

[PowderedH2O]

In NASCAR, the old saying says "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". In NASCAR, if you are caught cheating, your wins are taken away and your records disappear. Did that happen in baseball? Nope. MLB reaped all the benefits of the home runs of the steroid era. There was no way they would disqualify McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds. Later on, MLB decides to be all holy and taint steroid users. If MLB had any cajones, they would have nipped it in the 1990's. They didn't, so all results are official. Since Bonds and Clemens have OFFICIAL numbers that rank among the best ever, I see no reason not to include them, especially when the ringmaster himself (Selig) is in for no great performance of his own.

[shagrotn77]

Wow. This thing is practically split right down the middle.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

Wow. This thing is practically split right down the middle.

Doesn't it seem to be that way with everything these days?

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brian, thanks for the response, but I think you've put yourself on a slippery slope, when you say (as I understand you) your objection to cheating depends on what you perceive as the degree of impact. And unless I missed it you didn't address greenies which, I repeat, were illegal to use without a prescription after 1970 or so. I infer you think they were more like pat-a-cake too?

Honestly, Peter, you can take what I know about greenies and MLB and stick it in your eye, as my dear grandmother would say. I mean, I know absolutely nothing, including what greenies would do to improve one's performance.

When I think of steroids, and their degree of impact, as you aptly put it, their impact would be total. Once the ROID users were fully loaded, so to speak, EVERY time they came to bat, they were ready to power the ball way farther than they would have been able to at their best pre-ROID level. That is simply an illegal, disturbing advantage that is flat-out cheating. It doesn't matter that MLB had not deemed the drugs illegal during those years. All too often MLB moves at glacier speed to clean up its act, take appropriate action, and in the end, do the right thing. Naturally, my thinking of "doing the right thing" will frequently not coincide with someone else.

Be that as it may, the damage to MLB baseball and its reputation and records is essentially irreversible. Perhaps MLB's hierarchy is waiting for its fans to cease caring and give in to apathy. So much of their lame-brained inaction stems from a deep-seeded fear any decision will cause a deep drop in revenue. Perhaps they feel this lengthening ensuing period of years of leaving the record books alone, and thus rewarding the ROIDS with the home run records, is the right thing to do. After all, they broke the records. They fail to understand, and accept the fact that more than ever today, people want to know the story behind the story, what really went down, the true cause and effect.

Tis true, my equating slobber and scuff ball tricks to patty cake might be a slippery slope, but remember, all the umpires were watching, as well as the opposing team's dugout, as well as the fans. At any time, the umps could have seen something, called time, and lowered the boom. I found it quite entertaining, and yes, they were taking a slippery slope chance of having the boom lowered upon them. Be that as it may, come on, man, when the ass-terROIDS became the game face of baseball with their loaded bodies and mind-boggling home run and slugging percentage numbers, no one could do a thing for years. 'Twas those boomers that believed they could lower the boom on MLB pitching and get away with it. My, haven't their bodies shrunk today? It is amazing they're still alive.

Too late to say, but I'm getting verbose again.

Tis a hot stove league topic that will stay stoked 24/7 year-round. Nobody is really happy about the whole thing, either.

--- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are no great answers here, particularly as I think doing whatever it takes to get an edge always has been and always will be part of sports, and I think it perhaps is unfair to ostracize those who got caught because there probably are equal numbers who used more discreetly.

It may not be entirely defensible, but I would say yes to Bonds and Clemens because they were top tier near certain HOFers before they (allegedly) used, or at least before the popular perception is of when they started. There are other guys whose numbers make them easy candidates but I don't care so much if they never get in, e.g. Sosa and Palmeiro. Maybe it's inconsistent.

[packs]

Amphetamines and scuffing a baseball or even using a spitter has nothing in common with steroids in my opinion. Steroids and HGH alter your body. They allow a player like Brady Anderson to hit 50 homers over night. A greenie isn't going to do that for anybody. Throwing a spitter doesn't give a guy a new arm either. Using HGH or steroids is in a different category for me.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Steroids and HGH alter your body. They allow a player like Brady Anderson to hit 50 homers over night.

So will a corked bat. Cheating is cheating.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So will a corked bat. Cheating is cheating.

turns out, it doesn't

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/my...l-fly-farther/

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

turns out, it doesn't

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/my...l-fly-farther/

LOL, did you even scroll down and read the comments to your article?

Sure helped Sammy Sosa hit 66 in '98

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So will a corked bat. Cheating is cheating.

I don't really see any relation between using a corked bat and using steroids. The discussion centers around comparing amphetamines and steroids/HGH.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't really see any relation between using a corked bat and using steroids. The discussion centers around comparing amphetamines and steroids/HGH.

Wrong, the discussion centers around cheating. Nice try though.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are no great answers here, particularly as I think doing whatever it takes to get an edge always has been and always will be part of sports, and I think it perhaps is unfair to ostracize those who got caught because there probably are equal numbers who used more discreetly.

It may not be entirely defensible, but I would say yes to Bonds and Clemens because they were top tier near certain HOFers before they (allegedly) used, or at least before the popular perception is of when they started. There are other guys whose numbers make them easy candidates but I don't care so much if they never get in, e.g. Sosa and Palmeiro. Maybe it's inconsistent.

Peter, I know what you say has merit, but the first thing I thought of when you mentioned Bonds and Clemens were top tier near certain HOFers before....., I thought of Joe Jackson, who also was a sure shot HOFer.

Time is fleeting, and it brings along a new crop of people to the BBWA, among who will cast their ballots each year, or whenever. Last I paid attention, things were inching higher for the juiced bad boys. Some say it will prove they're really OK, and enshrinement will be an end that justified their means. It certainly won't change my mind, and many others, one bit. If you're pleased as punch if that day arrives, well, you won't be alone, either.

As you intimated, I think we have gridlock.

---Brian Powell