Card doctoring...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by murphy8276

If it is every proven it is more than .0001%, we are all in deep **** with our collection value.

Why? Judging by what I see, a whole heck of a lot of people don't care. They only care about getting the pretty card and flip they paid for, quickly, and well-packaged.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why? Judging by what I see, a whole heck of a lot of people don't care. They only care about getting the pretty card and flip they paid for, quickly, and well-packaged.

Peter, for argument’s sake, let’s say I agree with your premise that many altered cards reside in graded holders, AND I care about it, what’s your conclusion? What would you recommend one do? Avoid graded cards? Avoid high grade? To be clear, this is not intended to be a confrontational question. I’m genuinely interested on the advice you’d give a new collector given the reality of the things you’re mentioning.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Peter, for argument’s sake, let’s say I agree with your premise that many altered cards reside in graded holders, AND I care about it, what’s your conclusion? What would you recommend one do? Avoid graded cards? Avoid high grade? To be clear, this is not intended to be a confrontational question. I’m genuinely interested on the advice you’d give a new collector given the reality of the things you’re mentioning.

That's the question. What would you do? How would you approach your collecting? What would you think the hobby and other collectors should do? Would it change the grades you collect, or the pricing of grades? Would you want more history (provenance) on cards? Would you be willing to pay $50,000 for a graded 10 1957 Sandy Koufax, or would you say "I think I'll stick with $20 for the 3 version."?

If you learned that a percentage of TPA LOAs for autographs were incorrect, how would that affect your collecting of autographs? Would you still accept them as 100% accurate and cross your fingers? Or would you educate yourself about autograph authentication, take more care in picking autographs? What would you think of an industry that uses TPA LOAs as the final arbiter?

Duly note it is not the autograph and game used experts who take TPA LOAs as infallible and the final arbiters as what is authentic and not (go to the autograph section or the game used universe form to see this). It is collectors who lack knowledge, auction houses who want "insurance" and resellers who want something to move their product. You will find that expert collectors in these areas are DIY types.

My collecting personal advice on cards would to stick to mid to lower grades. Don't get price enamored by the grade on the label. There are a lot of great looking cards in lower grade, many presentable even good to poor grade. You skip all that Gem Mint, resubmit a card 10 times until you raise the grade by 0.5 crapola. If there's a missed flaw, saw a small wrinkle, on a 'Gem Mint' card that's a travesty; on a low grade card its no big deal. If you want to buy raw cards, that's great, but find reputable and trustworthy dealers to buy them from. Some people look for the cards, then see who is the seller. As a collector, I would find my favorite sellers and see what they were selling. Just my opinion-- everyone will have his own take and advice.

[packs]

Provenance will never matter when it comes to something like baseball cards. They were collected by children and rarely does a 100 plus year old card stay in one collection for the life of the card. So what provenance could there possibly be on a high grade T206? A notarized statement from an 8 year old in 1909? It'll never work.

My advice to anyone would be to avoid high grade pre-war cards entirely. I'd pay the same amount of money for a PSA 9 T206 that I would an Auth because I highly doubt there's any difference between them. But to each their own.

My advice to a new collector on a budget would be to stick to low/mid grade pre-war cards with nice eye appeal. My personal sweet spot is in the VG-VG/EX range. Chances are if you do this you will be able to find nice presentable cards at relative bargain prices and the likelihood of alterations is also presumably decreased.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Sorry, but I disagree with the advice to stick to mid grade cards. That's like putting a Band-Aid on cancer - it only covers up the problem. As the case with the Lou Brock card in this thread, it was a mid-grade card and off center at that, but it was still recolored.

My advice would be to educate yourself - learn what to look for. If you like mid-grade cards, fine then buy them. I'm not saying don't buy mid-grade cards. What I am saying is don't limit yourself to mid-grade cards just because you're afraid of buying something that's been altered.

Education, Knowledge - again, learn what to look for.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sorry, but I disagree with the advice to stick to mid grade cards. That's like putting a Band-Aid on cancer - it only covers up the problem. As the case with the Lou Brock card in this thread, it was a mid-grade card and off center at that, but it was still recolored.

My advice would be to educate yourself - learn what to look for. If you like mid-grade cards, fine then buy them. I'm not saying don't buy mid-grade cards. What I am saying is don't limit yourself to mid-grade cards just because you're afraid of buying something that's been altered.

Education, Knowledge - again, learn what to look for.

I'm in agreement with almost everything here. I tend to stick around the VGEX range due to my budget but will go off course for nicer cards. Part of me submitting cards is to uncover these issues and educate myself. Buying cards online is obviously tricky. I've gotten some great deals and been burnt. Part of the learning process.

Again thanks everyone for the feedback.