The BCCG problem

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

David,

Your right. I gonna save my complaints up for when it's really important.
Like when I get a NPB alert after 4 days bc a seller is supposed to have ESP and know I have been unable to pay for a legitimate reason.

The fact is everyone has a POV, it would be boring if everyone thought the same thing. I have no idea why a company would decide to have 2 products which basically do the same thing but employ a different scale. I have my ideas but I don't know.

The fact is that is a discussion forum. My guess is that many of the folks in this post have obviously opted not to do business with BCCG just like you did with Olive Garden. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't discuss it.

Just my $0.02.

Rag on!

Jeff,

You're right, this is a discussion forum - of pre-1980 baseball cards. This isn't a "post your complaint here forum." You're also right in the fact that everyone has their own POV's. However, here's this difference. I’ll give my POV in a thread that someone else starts, but I don’t start threads giving my POV and I don't force others to accept my POV.

Let me explain it to you a little different. If one doesn't like guns, then they can simply choose not to own one. However, why do some try to infringe upon the rights of those of that do by calling for a ban on guns? Another example. If one is a vegetarian, then they can simply choose not to eat meat. However, why do some want to try to ban all meat products for those of us that like it? See my point?

In other words, The OP is b!thcing about a service (that I would be willing to bet he’s never even used) that many people like and use and is profitable for the company that offers it, but he wants to do away with it for everyone. He can’t man up and make the responsible decision to just not use their service. No, he takes it to another level and tells all of us why we shouldn’t use it.

Did I wake up and find myself in some communist country? I'm going to say this for the third and final time, Jeff. If one doesn't like a company or their product, don't do business with them. What is so difficult about that?

Edited to add something for Jeff. Yes, I did complain about a seller filing a NPB on me when I was in the hospital. However, here's the difference. (1) I didn't start the thread. I only commented in a thread that somebody else started. (2) I didn't force my POV on others. In other words, I didn't post the seller's name or tell others not to buy from them.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I kind of like that place but it is darn hard to get into around where I live

They almost know us by name at our two closes Olive Gardens. It is my daughter's and wife's favorite place to eat. It is close to the top for me.

As for Beckett changing the BCCG grading system after so many years. Yes, they could do it. I personally think it would be stupid of them to change anything. I just don't look at BCCG....but you know what, in the last few years I probably haven't seen 1, that's right 1, card I even care about in those holders. It's an non-issue. best regards

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by Leon

They almost know us by name at our two closes Olive Gardens. It is my daughter's and wife's favorite place to eat. It is close to the top for me.

As for Beckett changing the BCCG grading system after so many years. Yes, they could do it. I personally think it would be stupid of them to change anything. I just don't look at BCCG....but you know what, in the last few years I probably haven't seen 1, that's right 1, card I even care about in those holders. It's an non-issue. best regards

Leon,
I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done with this board. It's a tremendous resource for all collectors and I can't even imagine the amount of work that goes into moderating these threads and playing referee when they devolve into infantile pissing matches, accusations and name-calling like this one. The job you do is nothing short of remarkable. However, the one thing I would say in regards to your comment is that yes, the BCCG holders are indeed a non-issue on the pre-war side, as those collectors are far too savvy to ever be duped by such a scheme. However, on the post-war side it is a problem, which is why I posted it in the post-war forum. One simple search of "BCCG" on eBay today turns up 10,291 hits, with almost all of them in the post-war category and many of them targeting the big-name rookie cards like Jordan, Ryan, Gretzky and Montana, where a 2 or 3 difference in grade means hundreds of dollars.
Regards,
Rob

[theseeker]

The rest of the world (including Beckett's) uses scales that start at 1. There is only one clear, logical reason for Beckett's low-end service to come along and start at 5-- a shady business arrangement that enables deceptive sellers to inflate card values through a legitimate grading company that decided to lower it's standards for just this one special service.

A generation ago, this hobby had lots of newbie child and casual collectors that were largely driven away by the greedy overkill of manufacturer's and dealers. Rather than working to get back some of the lost revenue Beckett's short-sighted business model is to squeze the last drop of juice out of those that remain. As those Guiness guys used to say "brilliant."

As for all those complaining.......remove those collectors from todays hobby and all that would remain would be smug, sophisticates.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Leon,
I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done with this board. It's a tremendous resource for all collectors and I can't even imagine the amount of work that goes into moderating these threads and playing referee when they devolve into infantile pissing matches, accusations and name-calling like this one. The job you do is nothing short of remarkable. However, the one thing I would say in regards to your comment is that yes, the BCCG holders are indeed a non-issue on the pre-war side, as those collectors are far too savvy to ever be duped by such a scheme. However, on the post-war side it is a problem, which is why I posted it in the post-war forum. One simple search of "BCCG" on eBay today turns up 10,291 hits, with almost all of them in the post-war category and many of them targeting the big-name rookie cards like Jordan, Ryan, Gretzky and Montana, where a 2 or 3 difference in grade means hundreds of dollars.
Regards,
Rob

Thanks for the kind words...And I will concede your points about this being mainly a post war card issue. I also will concede that at the time of the scale being made, it (almost assuredly) had to do with making more money. Why else would they do it? I get it guys. Believe me, my friends over there and myself wish that scale didn't exist. But it does and will continue as it's a profitable business model for them. No where in any of my comments will you see that I said it is good for the hobby. I have said, and remain saying, it is good for them in the way of pure business. So, if I were the one having to pay my bills over there, I would be hesitant to change what is working (in the way of profit). I hope my realistic business approach is taken the way it is meant to be. If I ran the company I would be hesitant to change anything making me good profits. Has anyone seen how "print" magazines are doing nowadays? That was Beckett's bread and butter for decades. With that being the case, my guess is they are just happy to make money. (again, a business-centric view)

[MikeU]

If I had a brand like Beckett, I would not want BCCG floating around to tarnish it. BCCG must get far more submissions than I realize or BCCG really does nothing to tarnish the brand. Not sure, but has always puzzled me a bit.

[HRBAKER]

David,
Whether you start the thread or post in one started by someone else to me is an irrelevant distinction. The point is that you shared a POV just like the poster that started this thread. NO ONE is forcing their POV down anyone's throat. Just like if you don't like a company's product - don't use it, if you don't like a thread or the direction or the content - don't read it, or comment in it or let it make you irate.

BCCG put themselves out there when they came up with a scale that was radically different from the norm. To think that it wouldn't or shouldn't generate discussion is implausible (to me).

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

NO ONE is forcing their POV down anyone's throat.
Jeff

When the OP and others have stated that BCCG should change their grading scale, then YES, that is forcing his / their POV down the throats of others - their customers who like and use their service and have no problem with their grading scale.

If the OP and others were actually a BCCG customer, then I would understand their argument. I might not agree with it, but as a customer he would have the right vocalize his opinion about their service. However, as I said earlier in this thread, I would be willing to bet that he has never even used their service.

Let's use my Olive Garden example again. I had a bad experience there many years ago and made a decision not to go back, but I don’t tell others that they shouldn’t eat there. That’s their choice and if they like the restaurant, it is of no concern of mine. I have never eaten a White Castle hamburger. That fast food chain does not exist in my part of the country. So if I say, “White Castle sucks!” then what is the basis of my argument? How can I intelligently speak about a product that I’ve never tried? In other words, I would be talking out my a$$ - just as the OP is doing here by never having used BCCGs service.

Jeff, all of this is obviously going way over your head, so I'll just concede the argument. I’m done posting here. Have the last word.

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

When the OP and others have stated that BCCG should change their grading scale, then YES, that is forcing his / their POV down the throats of others - their customers who like and use their service and have no problem with their grading scale.

If the OP and others were actually a BCCG customer, then I would understand their argument. I might not agree with it, but as a customer he would have the right vocalize his opinion about their service. However, as I said earlier in this thread, I would be willing to bet that he has never even used their service.

Let's use my Olive Garden example again. I had a bad experience there many years ago and made a decision not to go back, but I don’t tell others that they shouldn’t eat there. That’s their choice and if they like the restaurant, it is of no concern of mine. I have never eaten a White Castle hamburger. That fast food chain does not exist in my part of the country. So if I say, “White Castle sucks!” then what is the basis of my argument? How can I intelligently speak about a product that I’ve never tried? In other words, I would be talking out my a$$ - just as the OP is doing here by never having used BCCGs service.

Jeff, all of this is obviously going way over your head, so I'll just concede the argument. I’m done posting here. Have the last word.

I have been trying and trying to stay out of a tit-for-tat with vintagetoppsguy because his arguments are so patently absurd and analogies so bereft of logic that it's pointless to even respond. However, since he continues to hurl accusations my way I'll respond to his last post.

I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. If you disagree with my viewpoint, that's great. It's a free country and debate and discussion about various topics are what make Net54 a great, vibrant place for all collectors. I challenge you to find a single thread in any forum where no opinion has been expressed. That's what this is all about, dude. You have your view and I have mine and we are both entitled to express it here. The problem with so many of these threads is that people cannot agree to disagree. I can agree to disagree with vintagetoppsguy and not resort to accusations, silly analogies and juvenile postings of tampon products to make my point.

For the record, no I have never submitted a card to BCCG or purchased one, but who cares? I have seen plenty of BCCG-graded cards, held them up close to my face and I know their grading scale sucks. I have seen a BCCG 8 with a crease through Sandy Koufax's face. That sucks. I have plenty of education in this hobby and that is enough.

Do I have to smoke a cigarette to know it's bad for me? Do I have to be a victim of scammer Bernie Madoff to advise others not to put their investments with him? Do I have to be a customer of the Yugo automobile to know that the car they made was a piece of crap? Since you love your Olive Garden analogy, if I'm not a paying customer, do I have the right to tell others not to eat there if I hear on the news that they just served a rat with the veal parmigiana? (which to my knowledge has never happened - just an example).

That's it - my last post too.
Best regards,
Rob

[novakjr]

Agree with Rob...Especially about David's analogies being completely bereft of logic. At their core, they may make some sense, but they leave out key factors for comparison...Stating that White Castle suck without ever having it, is completely different from despising BCCG without having ever submitted a card.. Mostly because the effects of White Castle on the fine dining community cannot be seen firsthand without tasting. However, the effects of BCCG on the hobby can be seen without ever submitting a card to them.. Personally, I do have a handful of modern cards in BCCG 10 holders, but only because they were cheaper than similarly conditioned ungraded copies.. YES! Cheaper than ungraded copies. And then you see the occasional card being run up either because some seller lists it as Beckett graded 10 or BGS 10, or simply because the buyer doesn't know any better...Yes, as I've stated before, the fault ultimately lies with the uninformed buyer, BUT Beckett at the same time can put a stop to this crap....We all know that a few instances like this is all it takes for a beginning or unkowledgable collector to lose interest in the hobby after being burned. And that is not good at all.. YES! I said it. BCCG is contributing to people leaving the hobby. Perhaps even more than the SWG's, MINT's, GEM's, PGI's, and PRO's of the world, because they have a name that should be trusted in Beckett attached to it..

[jwgators]

If they changed the grading scale now in the middle of it all, there would be even more confusion with their grades. Is it a 6 from before they changed the scale or afterwards? How can I tell the difference?

Same BCCG labels, same BCCG number grades, but then the descriptions would be different. it would not help anyone and it would probably ruin their business going forward. You would still have to read the description of the grade below the number, but now you would have two items with the same company (BCCG), same number grade, but with drastically different conditions.

It would have been nice to have a similar grading scale from the get-go, but it would be worse to change it after thousands and thousands of cards have been graded on the original "bad" scale.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by jwgators

If they changed the grading scale now in the middle of it all, there would be even more confusion with their grades. Is it a 6 from before they changed the scale or afterwards? How can I tell the difference?

Same BCCG labels, same BCCG number grades, but then the descriptions would be different. it would not help anyone and it would probably ruin their business going forward. You would still have to read the description of the grade below the number, but now you would have two items with the same company (BCCG), same number grade, but with drastically different conditions.

It would have been nice to have a similar grading scale from the get-go, but it would be worse to change it after thousands and thousands of cards have been graded on the original "bad" scale.

The simple point is "bad scale" is still "bad scale".. Change it or get rid of it...Maybe not the service, but the number system all-together. What's wrong with a slab simply having a grade rather than a number? The number was unnecessary from the start, and honestly only in place so people could see that "10". SGC went from only listing their number scale to also including a PSA equivalent scale on their slabs to help deal with the confusion, so why couldn't BCCG simply get rid of their numbers to clean up the confusion that they caused? Sure the old slabs would still cause some confusion to some people, but wouldn't it be good to at least stop adding to that number of potentially confusing slabbed cards?

[smtjoy]

I think its a huge negative to Beckett and I will not submit nor recommend them because of it. Its a money grab and preys on those with less knowledge of card grading.

[Jason]

I always thought something was off about those slabs.I didnt understand the difference really until this thread.I assumed they were the older,first produced slabs of Beckett.

[HRBAKER]

Jeff, all of this is obviously going way over your head, so I'll just concede the argument. I’m done posting here. Have the last word.

Yes David you are right, your arguments and analogies are way over my head and many others obviously. Nobody is making anyone either not submit a card for BCCG grading or not buy one, they are simply stating that in their opinion the scale is confusing and opens the door for deceiptful selling. Interestingly enough their arguments and POVs don't seem to go over my head. I am sorry that you feel put upon or that you are having something forced down your throat. It's just a message board and these are all opinions.

Maybe I'll go back to the prewar side whether the conversations are dummied down where I can understand them.

[doug.goodman]

This thread illustrates why there will never be world peace

[ALR-bishop]

I disagree completely Doug. We absolutely must continue to fight for world peace