NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:52 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default T206 Wagner Given Away for Free...to fill a hole of course.

I know not many members read all of the threads especially the early hobby ones. That said I would like others opinions to see if they read that letter, posted in the ACC thread, the way I did? IS Burdick thanking Wagner for giving him a T206 Wagner because he still needed it in his collection, just to fill a hole? And I believe Burdick is sending a few stamps (as they used stamps for currency back then, sometimes)? If that is the case, I think that is worthy of pointing out.... unless I am wrong?
Here is the first page and it's technically the 2nd paragraph

.
[IMG][/IMG]
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 06-14-2017 at 09:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:13 AM
RaidonCollects's Avatar
RaidonCollects RaidonCollects is offline
Owen R
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: England
Posts: 222
Default

That's amazing! I heard that Wagner at one point had two Wagners, one of which I assume Wagner talking about here. John Wagner and John Wagner once met at a game and Wagner told Wagner that the Wagner card was so rare because of Wagner's disapproval of selling Wagner cards to kids via tobacco, and that is the main point of evidence as to the reason for the Wagner's rarity.

A nice even 10 Wagners in that paragraph

Thanks for sharing,

Owen
__________________
1955 Topps 171/206
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:19 AM
T206Collector's Avatar
T206Collector T206Collector is offline
Paul
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,581
Default

I'm going to say yes. I bet Burdick didn't want to write "Wagner" in a letter to "Wagner" so he came up with a different way of talking about the "Holy Grail."
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs
www.SignedT206.com

www.instagram.com/signedT206/
@SignedT206
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:52 AM
edjs's Avatar
edjs edjs is offline
€dw@rd Sk€Łt0n
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,228
Default

If you are referring to his reference to "Pontifical Standard," he is probably referring to these cards. The are called either "Pontifical Flags" or "Pontifical Standards," as a standard is a flag that represents a military unit. These cards are from I believe c. 1870 or so, and represent the Papal military units. I, too, could be wrong.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pontifical standard.jpg (43.2 KB, 437 views)
__________________
Ed

Collecting PCL, Southern Association, and type cards.
http://hangingjudgesports.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:58 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

Had he not mentioned the specific set (521 = T206 at the time) I would tend to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edjs View Post
If you are referring to his reference to "Pontifical Standard," he is probably referring to these cards. The are called either "Pontifical Flags" or "Pontifical Standards," as a standard is a flag that represents a military unit. These cards are from I believe c. 1870 or so, and represent the Papal military units. I, too, could be wrong.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:12 AM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
Default

No, I don't think Burdick is referring to the T206 Wagner when he says "Pontifical Standard" here. At first glance, the wording of that sentence does seem to suggest that the "Pontifical Standard" is included in the "wants in the #521 set", but it could also be referring to two separate elements of the four cards that Wagner had sent to Burdick -- one or more cards from #521 (T206), and also a Pontifical Standard card from another set.

That interpretation is made more likely by the fact that "Pontifical Standard" had a specific meaning -- in the late 1800s, it referred to the flag of the Pontifical States, or what we today know as the Vatican. There were numerous tobacco card sets of national flags in the 1880s, several of which included the Pontifical States flag, and I assume that Burdick is referring to one of these. I haven't been able to find one that's explicitly labeled "Pontifical Standard", but the N195 Kimball National Flags set includes a card labeled "Pontifical States" -- #9 at the following link:

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N195/go.html

That flag also appeared on a card (which I have) in N126 Duke Rulers, Flags, Arms of All Nations set, though there it's labeled "Flag of Papal States" (#35 at this link

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N126/go.html

It wouldn't make sense for Burdick to refer to the T206 Wagner as the "Pontifical Standard", even if the card was as well-known in 1939 as it later became. "Pontifical" means "having to do with the Pope".

Also, as I pointed out in a post last week, Burdick thanked John D. Wagner in the October 1, 1948 for donating a T206 Wagner to the collection that Burdick was giving to the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240887

If that 1939 letter referred to the T206 Wagner, it would imply that Burdick had a Wagner but then traded or sold it before 1948. But I don't see any evidence of that in Burdick's voluminous writings from that period, though there are some mentions of how rare the Wagner was, including in the October 1, 1948 article linked to above.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:14 AM
ramram's Avatar
ramram ramram is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,264
Default

Is there a jump to conclusion that this letter is to Honus or could it possibly be some other collector named Wagner?

Rob M
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:25 AM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramram View Post
Is there a jump to conclusion that this letter is to Honus or could it possibly be some other collector named Wagner?

Rob M
No, the letter is written to John D. Wagner, a prominent early collector whose correspondence Leon has (including the posted letter). John D. Wagner did meet Honus Wagner on August 12, 1941, as he reported in the October 1, 1941 Card Collector's Bulletin:

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:34 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

I still think he possibly is talking about a T206. If not then why did he say he had only seen one other? Is he talking about one other flag card, I doubt it? But your last point is salient too.....but there is also a chance Burdick did in fact help another collector out and give away the one that had been given to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trdcrdkid View Post
No, I don't think Burdick is referring to the T206 Wagner when he says "Pontifical Standard" here. At first glance, the wording of that sentence does seem to suggest that the "Pontifical Standard" is included in the "wants in the #521 set", but it could also be referring to two separate elements of the four cards that Wagner had sent to Burdick -- one or more cards from #521 (T206), and also a Pontifical Standard card from another set.

That interpretation is made more likely by the fact that "Pontifical Standard" had a specific meaning -- in the late 1800s, it referred to the flag of the Pontifical States, or what we today know as the Vatican. There were numerous tobacco card sets of national flags in the 1880s, several of which included the Pontifical States flag, and I assume that Burdick is referring to one of these. I haven't been able to find one that's explicitly labeled "Pontifical Standard", but the N195 Kimball National Flags set includes a card labeled "Pontifical States" -- #9 at the following link:

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N195/go.html

That flag also appeared on a card (which I have) in N126 Duke Rulers, Flags, Arms of All Nations set, though there it's labeled "Flag of Papal States" (#35 at this link

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N126/go.html

It wouldn't make sense for Burdick to refer to the T206 Wagner as the "Pontifical Standard", even if the card was as well-known in 1939 as it later became. "Pontifical" means "having to do with the Pope".

Also, as I pointed out in a post last week, Burdick thanked John D. Wagner in the October 1, 1948 for donating a T206 Wagner to the collection that Burdick was giving to the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240887

If that 1939 letter referred to the T206 Wagner, it would imply that Burdick had a Wagner but then traded or sold it before 1948. But I don't see any evidence of that in Burdick's voluminous writings from that period, though there are some mentions of how rare the Wagner was, including in the October 1, 1948 article linked to above.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 06-14-2017 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:43 AM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I still think he possibly is talking about a T206. If not then why did he say he had only seen one other? Is he talking about one other flag card, I doubt it? But your last point is salient too.....
I don't see why he couldn't be talking about some obscure set of flag cards that included one of the Pontifical Standard. Not necessarily the N195s that I mentioned, but something more obscure. I'll have to look at the Forbes and Mitchell book on American tobacco cards when I get home to see if there's anything that might fit the bill. I agree that Burdick's language is ambiguous, but in context I don't think the Pontifical Standards card he mentions is a T206.

Last edited by trdcrdkid; 06-14-2017 at 11:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-14-2017, 10:52 AM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
₳₦ĐɎ ₦ɆɄ฿ɆⱤ₮
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,023
Default

I, too, read it that he was sent 4 random cards and at least one was a t206 and one was a card he referred to as "Pontifical Standard" but this isn't the t206 card. Look at the letter and he is straight forward and doesn't allude to things. Also he only capitalized the proper names in the letter. If he was alluding to a certain player in the "t206" set I believe he would have used lower case for the phrase.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-14-2017, 01:54 PM
T206Collector's Avatar
T206Collector T206Collector is offline
Paul
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,581
Default

Keep in mind that John D. Wagner specialized in baseball cards. See collector No. 12 on Burdick's list, attached ("Specializing in Baseball Subjects"). He is also listed as a "General Collector," but I think the fact that Wagner specialized in baseball cards is additional evidence that what Burdick was writing about was referring to the T206 Wagner.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ccb1pag1e.jpg (78.2 KB, 192 views)
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs
www.SignedT206.com

www.instagram.com/signedT206/
@SignedT206

Last edited by T206Collector; 06-14-2017 at 02:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:24 PM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Keep in mind that John D. Wagner specialized in baseball cards. See collector No. 12 on Burdick's list, attached ("Specializing in Baseball Subjects"). He is also listed as a "General Collector," but I think the fact that Wagner specialized in baseball cards is additional evidence that what Burdick was writing about was referring to the T206 Wagner.
It's true that Wagner specialized in baseball cards, but that's not all he collected, not by a long shot. See his bio in the Card Collectors' Hall of Fame that I posted recently:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240459

Especially this part:



The fact that Wagner was especially interested in military cards makes it unsurprising that he would have had a scarce card of the "Pontifical Standard", or a military flag of the Papal/Pontifical States. And again, it wouldn't make any sense for Burdick to refer to a T206 Wagner by that name, which refers to a specific kind of flag.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:30 PM
T206Collector's Avatar
T206Collector T206Collector is offline
Paul
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,581
Default

Neat clipping - reminds me of Leon replacing the collection he sold....
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs
www.SignedT206.com

www.instagram.com/signedT206/
@SignedT206
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-14-2017, 06:10 PM
nsaddict's Avatar
nsaddict nsaddict is offline
Richard L.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 417
Default

I'm certain it's not Honus. The content of the letter tells of a collector with knowledge of various card issues. Just a coincidence to have the same last name and mention of #521 in my opinion. This is what I believe is in reference to.



var-papal.jpg
__________________
Rich@rd Lap@int
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-14-2017, 06:54 PM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
Default

Richard --

I had thought of N9s, but didn't think any of them were rare enough that Burdick wouldn't have it. I didn't realize how many variations there are in that set until I looked it up in Forbes and Mitchell just now. I have the "Papal Standard" one among my 40 N9s, which I gather is the more common one. I assume the "Pontifical States" variant was the one that Wagner sent to Burdick, who mixed up/merged the two titles in his letter.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-14-2017, 07:12 PM
T206Collector's Avatar
T206Collector T206Collector is offline
Paul
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,581
Default

Game, set, match
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs
www.SignedT206.com

www.instagram.com/signedT206/
@SignedT206
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:51 PM
BobbyVCP BobbyVCP is offline
Bobby Binder
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Keaau Hawaii
Posts: 446
Default

I like this quote

"Here's the dope on what he has in small cards"

Hard to believe that was used in 1939
__________________
Bobby Binder
www.vcpcards.com
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FREE!!!!! (3) Large Display Cabinets Free!!!! jcmtiger Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 19 05-28-2015 07:45 AM
1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG tedzan Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 44 08-12-2014 09:37 AM
Topps T206 Buyback .....To Free or Not to Free? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 14 03-16-2007 07:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:43 AM.


ebay GSB