NAV: Ty Cobb autograph with Ironclad :) provenance

[Runscott]

Pulled, as questions have been raised concerning the enhancement for publication, and I don't feel like dealing with it.

Ty Cobb signature used in 1924 Bradley Sweaters Ad

You can't beat the provenance on this Ty Cobb autograph: this is the exact Ty Cobb signature that Baseball Magazine published in 1924 in a Bradley Sweaters ad that was on the back cover. Full page letters were mailed to various team managers. The managers were to sign the letter, authorizing the use of their signature in the ad, and in return their team would be sent sweaters. Someone at Bradley saved the letters - full letters for those authorizing the use of their signatures, and the bottom section only, for those who did not authorize their use. Some of the managers eventually gave their consent, including Cobb.

The signature itself was touched up around the edges of some letters, with white, similar to how old photographs were marked up. This was done for publication. The piece measures 6 1/4 x 2 3/4. The interesting 'T' in 'Tyrus' is uncommon and he used it almost exclusively when he signed a letter simply 'Ty', but I also found that he commonly signed correspondence this way during 1923-25. I have no idea why, but it's authentic and the signature matches the ad perfectly. A rare version of his signature with great provenance.

I have attached the best image I could find of the actual back cover of the magazine, but I'm sure a cleaner version will show up at some point. I was also able to find two photographs of Cobb that were taken in the Spring of 1924 in Augusta, GA, where he is wearing his Bradley sweater. A glossy 5x7 printed image of the ad and a 8x10 glossy image of the horizontal version of Cobb wearing the sweater, will be included with the autograph. Both are printed on high-quality photo paper.

I had planned on saving this until I could find a hi-res copy of the actual ad, but I need to sell some things, so here you go.

[canjond]

Scott-

Cool piece, and one point of clarification. I recall when these sold, there was mention of certain of the signatures being enhanced (and I believe the original JSA letters noted that). Was the enhancement the white you referenced, or was Ty's signature actually traced over to make it appear as bold as it does?

Obviously please don't take this question the wrong way - the answer obviously affects my level of interest.

Thanks.

[Runscott]

No, no tracing over - just some white to clean up edges. My assumption is that there was some errant ink or smudging. This was not done to any of the other autograph pieces.

[Runscott]

Thete are certainly pluses and minuses to this piece. It will probably end up involved in a trade for a handwritten letter, as I need a Cobb and that's my collectong focus.

[canjond]

Thanks for the clarification, Scott.

[Runscott]

Jon, I just got out the JSA letter, and it does say "The original black fountain pen signature has since then been enhanced by an unknown hand."

By 'enhancement', Spence must have meant the white around some of the letters. The inked signature itself is original with no black ink added.

If you have additional comments or questions that might call the facts related to my item into question, I would appreciate a simple email. If you have a valid concern and I ignore it, the normal Net54 flame battle is to be expected. Thanks.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by canjond

Scott-

Cool piece, and one point of clarification. I recall when these sold, there was mention of certain of the signatures being enhanced (and I believe the original JSA letters noted that). Was the enhancement the white you referenced, or was Ty's signature actually traced over to make it appear as bold as it does?

Obviously please don't take this question the wrong way - the answer obviously affects my level of interest.

Thanks.

One more thing. Here is the exact detail from the SCP auction. There was no image of the actual JSA letter shown in the auction. It sounds like you are a disgruntled consignor. If you truly thought the ink in Cobb's signature had been traced over, you should have made sure that the auction house divulged that when you consigned it. Same for the text from the JSA letter that I quoted. But SCP was spot-on with there description - detail pertaining to the Cobb autograph is highlighted below and corresponds almost exactly to my description. I wasn't even aware of the exact text from the JSA letter (I had not read it) until I went back to look for after your comment. Apparently you were the only one who had actually read it.

It's true that I got an unusually good deal on this lot. Bad form, Jon.

"Interesting collection of typed signed letters and partial letters to the Bradley Knitting Company in which 7 prominent managers agree, in exchange for 25 sweaters, to let them use their signature, a quote from him on how good the sweaters are, and a photo of their teams wearing the sweaters in their advertising. All have signed in beautiful 9/10 vintage black steel tip pen. Full letters are: William Killefer - Chicago Cubs, Bill McKechnie - Pittsburgh Pirates, George Sisler - St. Louis Browns, and Clark Griffith - Washington Senators. Partial letters(quote and signature): Ty Cobb - Detroit Tigers, Dave Bancroft - Boston Braves, and Art Fletcher - Philadelphia Phillies. All letters are in nice condition with the following minor exceptions: Killefer & McKechnie have rust stains from a paper clip, Griffith has 3 small stains to left side, Fletcher has a line of pencil writing. George Sisler has added an extra hand written paragraph to his letter. A little of the background to the Ty Cobb signature has been cleaned up to make a better image when replicated in advertising materials. Also included is a February 24, 1924 letter to the advertising manager of Baseball Magazine concerning the sending of these testimonials for publication. A great sampling of significant pre-war baseball autographs as well an interesting window into the early days of sports marketing.
All seven letters have individual full LOA's from JSA.
Lot has been Pre-certified by PSA/DNA."

[canjond]

Scott - to be clear, I was not the consignor in SCP or any other auction, and I never owned this piece or any of the letters. Also, I've never been an underbidder on the item. To that end, I worded my original post very carefully and certainly didn't think I implied anything nefarious - all I did was ask a simple question. I had interest in the Cobb letter when you posted it, but I recalled them having been sold as a group in a Lipset auction a few years ago with the information I asked about above (I was not aware SCP sold them as well).

As for my knowing what the JSA letters say, if you go back and check the Lipset auction, you will see that it quotes the JSA letter, which is what I recalled reading.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by canjond

Scott - to be clear, I was not the consignor in SCP or any other auction, and I never owned this piece or any of the letters. Also, I've never been an underbidder on the item. To that end, I worded my original post very carefully and certainly didn't think I implied anything nefarious - all I did was ask a simple question. I had interest in the Cobb letter when you posted it, but I recalled them having been sold as a group in a Lipset auction a few years ago with the information I asked about above (I was not aware SCP sold them as well).

As for my knowing what the JSA letters say, if you go back and check the Lipset auction, you will see that it quotes the JSA letter, which is what I recalled reading.

Okay, thanks Jon, for clarifying. The phrase you used - "traced over" - was a little irritating, since the SCP auction didn't describe anything of the sort, and tracing is frowned upon with autographs. The Cobb signature is definitely darker than the others. Nothing was done to the other autographs to prepare them for publication, so I have no idea why someone would have even enhanced the background of the Cobb, or traced over it (if that occurred).

In any case, I'll pull it as the thought is now in the head of anyone who would consider purchasing it.

[esehombre]

Well, the thought should be there and for full disclosure's sake it should be mentioned as a possibility.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by esehombre

Well, the thought should be there and for full disclosure's sake it should be mentioned as a possibility.

Dude, my disclosure was as full as I knew how to make it. This thread is already on the verge of being considered 'hijacked', and the irony is that the last thing I expected was a bunch of negative comments about it. Given the fact that it's virtually THE ONLY example of a Ty Cobb autograph that actually has provenance, I thought all of the comments I received would be on the positive side. Cobb received this letter in 1923/24, held it, read it, signed it. It was then used in a published ad - the exact signature. The 'cleaning up' is actually added evidence that it was used for publication and signed by Cobb. I have been purchasing and studying Cobb signatures for over a decade, and, other than checks and other legal documents, this is the only Cobb signature that actually has any significant provenance.

If you are kicking a tire, please fade back into Deutschland. If you are a serious buyer, continue talking, but say something useful please.

[Chris999]

All things considered, what were you asking for the piece if you don't mind me inquiring.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Chris999

All things considered, what were you asking for the piece if you don't mind me inquiring.

It's on ebay, and the price I offer here is usually 10-15% lower (sometimes more). If you feel like making an offer here, just use the contact member function.

I'm still looking for a hi-res scan of the ad it was used in. Once I have that, it's going in a display with the photo of him wearing his Bradley sweater and then either to my wall, or to an auction house.