Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Yes… Frank Chance, Nap LaJoie, Walter Johnson, Red Dooin, Johnny Evers, Clark Griffith and Managers Connie Mack and John McGraw, to name a few off the top of my head. I know there are more but am in the midst of a brain fart.

[ooo-ribay]

I’ve never even heard of Red Dooin.

[ChiefBeef]

Bump for any information.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes… Frank Chance, Nap LaJoie, Walter Johnson, Red Dooin, Johnny Evers, Clark Griffith and Managers Connie Mack and John McGraw, to name a few off the top of my head. I know there are more but am in the midst of a brain fart.

Ah yes of course. The bakery pennants come to mind. I guess I was thinking a player-only pennant with no (or lesser) mention of team. But that’s not exactly a clear cut category. If you’re talking about that Foxey Griff pennant …. Wow … I remember seeing that on eBay in my early collecting days, late 90s, and didn’t make the connection to Clark Griffith. It sold for like a grand and then I saw a dealer with it at an antique show in Atlantic City. I wonder if you have the exact pennant ….

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I’ve never even heard of Red Dooin.

Dooin’s Daisies! … as the Phillies were known when Red was manager (1910-14). This pennant can run north of $10K in auction …

[matty39]

same graphic

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by matty39

same graphic

Was that done for a tour of Japan? The font, obviously, suggests that.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Was that done for a tour of Japan? The font, obviously, suggests that.

Possibly. I’ve read that the 1913-14 World Tour stopped in Japan, but Christy did not make any overseas trips.

[thetahat]

Made a holder for it … it’s not without blemishes but it works for limited display room. 40 gauge clear vinyl from an online marine store, very thick but soft. One day I’ll try the poster frame approach suggested by Baseball Rob.

[ooo-ribay]

Domer alerted me to this pennant (on etsy). Since my "room" is more of a flea market than a museum, I figured I would stuff the monogram under some other stuff and let the San Francisco show. The seller was Keith Javic...Domer tells me he's mrkrab around here. For $60, I figured I couldn't go wrong. Keith represented this as 1910's. What do you guys think? Was stitching this good in the 1910s? This thing is massive...47" x 17." Keith also guessed the monogram was Polytechnic College, but I see a P I C, not P T C. Besides, there's never been a Polytechnic College in SF. Any other guesses who this pennant might represent?

[bocca001]

I'd say that is maybe PPIE for Panama Pacific International Exposition (1915).

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I'd say that is maybe PPIE for Panama Pacific International Exposition (1915).

Hmmmm. Could be...

[ChiefBeef]

Repost to see if anyone can answer. I have seen this pennant in several threads and online resources. It is not listed in Mike Enger's book (2013 version) in this red field color. It is shown in his book with the field of the pennant grayy.

Any info would be appreciated. I attached the picture again of mine.

Thanks for the consideration.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ChiefBeef

Repost to see if anyone can answer. I have seen this pennant in several threads and online resources. It is not listed in Mike Enger's book (2013 version) in this red field color. It is shown in his book with the field of the pennant grayy.

Any info would be appreciated. I attached the picture again of mine.

Thanks for the consideration.

Cool pennant. These tend to fade easy. This is from a pennant company we haven’t identified as of yet. I personally think it’s a NY area company. This style appears to have been made for the WS between 1954-57. The spine material is unique to this maker.

[ooo-ribay]

Also, Randy, I think Egner was just showing different designs; not necessarily color variations. Your red probably has the same “value” as a gray example.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Also, Randy, I think Egner was just showing different designs; not necessarily color variations. Your red probably has the same “value” as a gray example.

Is there a color version of Egner's book? Mine is black and white. How can you tell what color his pictures are?

[Fballguy]

Just found out about the existence of this pennant yesterday. Unfortunately it doesn't exist in my collection. Apparently, it comes up for sale with Halley's Comet like frequency. There are actually a few different ones with this theme. I love that it was deemed innocent in the 1950s but would never fly today (due to white outrage most likely, not Chinese).

Are there any similarly politically incorrect baseball pennants aside from the relatively tame and ubiquitous big nose Chief Wahoo and scalp waving Milwaukee Brave? Had never seen my Crackers pennant before, but not sure if that was politically incorrect as there aren't definitive origins of that name.

"Chinese Bandits" was the nickname for LSU's back up defensive unit in the late 1950s...known for their tenacity and toughness. Fairly certain, those qualities would be offensive today.

[Darner]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Is there a color version of Egner's book? Mine is black and white. How can you tell what color his pictures are?

The digital/Kindle version is in color.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Darner

The digital/Kindle version is in color.

Cool...Never even thought to look for that. Thanks

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Just found out about the existence of this pennant yesterday. Unfortunately it doesn't exist in my collection. Apparently, it comes up for sale with Halley's Comet like frequency. There are actually a few different ones with this theme. I love that it was deemed innocent in the 1950s but would never fly today (due to white outrage most likely, not Chinese).

Are there any similarly politically incorrect baseball pennants aside from the relatively tame and ubiquitous big nose Chief Wahoo and scalp waving Milwaukee Brave? Had never seen my Crackers pennant before, but not sure if that was politically incorrect as there aren't definitive origins of that name.

"Chinese Bandits" was the nickname for LSU's back up defensive unit in the late 1950s...known for their tenacity and toughness. Fairly certain, those qualities would be offensive today.

Edited to say that vintage pennants found to be offensive are in the eye of the beholder.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I'd say that is maybe PPIE for Panama Pacific International Exposition (1915).

evidence?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'm sure there are plenty of today's SJWs that would attempt to cancel the Brooklyn Bum, and every pennant on which he appears.

SJWs? Are we getting political again?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

SJWs? Are we getting political again?

Edited to say that some people like the nickname "Bums" as a term of endearment, and some may not.

[erikc21]

We’ve covered this topic a lot, but I still enjoy a good before and after picture. I try to stay away from the color red, but this one improved quite a bit imho.

It’s a rainy and gloomy day here so the lighting doesn’t show the ‘after’ as well as I’d like.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I thought that's how they branded themselves... social justice being their objective. If there's a negative connotation, let me know and I will delete comment. Nevertheless, I don't think this faction would be tolerant of a team called "The Bums", represented by a cartoonish Hobo-like mascot. Willard Mullin may be the next to go the same route as Dr. Suess.

C'mon, Mark. Please try to be better than this.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

C'mon, Mark. Please try to be better than this.

Ok- I cleaned it up... thanx

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

C'mon, Mark. Please try to be better than this.

I didn't see anything wrong with it. Everything he said was true. Only a matter of time before the Chiefs, Indians and Braves have new names. Ant Jemima and Uncle Ben both gone. I know plenty of black people who are pissed about that. Who decides what's offensive anyway? A vocal minority it seems.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by erikc21

We’ve covered this topic a lot, but I still enjoy a good before and after picture. I try to stay away from the color red, but this one improved quite a bit imho.

It’s a rainy and gloomy day here so the lighting doesn’t show the ‘after’ as well as I’d like.

Great result Erik!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I didn't see anything wrong with it. Everything he said was true. Only a matter of time before the Chiefs, Indians and Braves have new names. Ant Jemima and Uncle Ben both gone. I know plenty of black people who are pissed about that. Who decides what's offensive anyway? A vocal minority it seems.

So who IS going to decide? You? Mark? I can, however, tell you who decided when slavery was legal. I can tell you who decided when Native Americans were being marched into oblivion. I can guess that a poll of Germans in 1946 would have shown overwhelming support for keeping the Swastika as the country's symbol. If things swing a little too far in the direction of trying to correct America's long and sordid history of oppression of minorities of all kinds, that seems a small price to pay in the ledger of atonement. I suspect, though, that many of the objectors have no interest in atonement of any kind, and probably little awareness that there is anything to atone for.

[ChiefBeef]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
Also, Randy, I think Egner was just showing different designs; not necessarily color variations. Your red probably has the same “value” as a gray example.

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Is there a color version of Egner's book? Mine is black and white. How can you tell what color his pictures are?

Someone suggested there was a Kindle Version, and sure enough there is with color. My original thoughts came from the print version which is not in color. My thoughts on color came from internet searches. I have attached three versions here. One is from eBay and it was described as green and gold. The one that looks gray turns out to be a bad picture of a green one, BUT, the logos match.

Also, to be fully correct with my interpretations, the pennants depicted in Enger's book do not match up with the logos. The left side is different, and looks to be brown.

I got the one I have with the maroon background from Wheatland AH so I am sure it is most likely legit. I will try to follow up and see if I can get any further history from them.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

So who IS going to decide? You? Mark? I can, however, tell you who decided when slavery was legal. I can tell you who decided when Native Americans were being marched into oblivion. I can guess that a poll of Germans in 1946 would have shown overwhelming support for keeping the Swastika as the country's symbol. If things swing a little too far in the direction of trying to correct America's long and sordid history of oppression of minorities of all kinds, that seems a small price to pay in the ledger of atonement. I suspect, though, that many of the objectors have no interest in atonement of any kind, and probably little awareness that there is anything to atone for.

It's a good and important discussion. But not for this particular thread (or even this forum). I edited out my previous comments, so we can just focus on pennants here.

I have a collection of Willard Mullin original artwork, circa 1940s-50s. Mullin created "The Brooklyn Bum" and used extreme characters to depict the Indians, Braves, Pirates, etc. I won't post the images, as many would be deemed offensive by today's standards.

I just found it interesting that the work of cartoon artists like Mullin/Gallo/O'Mealia graced the front pages of every major newspaper and The Sporting News every single day from the 1940s through at least the 1980s. Now it is a lost art form that is rarely seen. Perhaps partly because of the print media decline and partly because of the subject matter being more restrictive under today's standards.

Same holds true for the LSU Chinese Bandits Pennant posted by Rob... definitely would not be made today. Interesting topics for sure, but best suited for another day/another forum.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

So who IS going to decide? You? Mark? I can, however, tell you who decided when slavery was legal. I can tell you who decided when Native Americans were being marched into oblivion. I can guess that a poll of Germans in 1946 would have shown overwhelming support for keeping the Swastika as the country's symbol. If things swing a little too far in the direction of trying to correct America's long and sordid history of oppression of minorities of all kinds, that seems a small price to pay in the ledger of atonement. I suspect, though, that many of the objectors have no interest in atonement of any kind, and probably little awareness that there is anything to atone for.

That's right. I will decide and every other person with a brain should too. Too many sheep in this country afraid to think on their own. But I think that will change soon. A lot of good people of all races are getting tired of the lunacy.

PS...The world decided slavery was legal. And slaves were acquired from black brokers in Africa. So what exactly are you implying? I leave that rhetorical, as Mark said, there's a place for this conversation but it's probably not here.

[ooo-ribay]

I think the “sheep” are the exact opposite of the SJWs....which, by the way, I had to google. The real sheep love their demeaning catch phrases.

Sorry, I had to say it.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

So who IS going to decide? You? Mark? I can, however, tell you who decided when slavery was legal. I can tell you who decided when Native Americans were being marched into oblivion. I can guess that a poll of Germans in 1946 would have shown overwhelming support for keeping the Swastika as the country's symbol. If things swing a little too far in the direction of trying to correct America's long and sordid history of oppression of minorities of all kinds, that seems a small price to pay in the ledger of atonement. I suspect, though, that many of the objectors have no interest in atonement of any kind, and probably little awareness that there is anything to atone for.

One should only *atone* for the results of his or her own immoral actions. That’s not the same as speaking up for what is right.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

We’ve covered this topic a lot, but I still enjoy a good before and after picture. I try to stay away from the color red, but this one improved quite a bit imho.

It’s a rainy and gloomy day here so the lighting doesn’t show the ‘after’ as well as I’d like.

Very nice …. Simple design but tough (and cool) pennant.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think the “sheep” are the exact opposite of the SJWs....which, by the way, I had to google. The real sheep love their demeaning catch phrases.

Sorry, I had to say it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're the exact opposite. I think they're afraid of the SJWs. Afraid to be called names or get cancelled for sharing an opposing view. So they just blend in to remain invisible from attack. They allow themselves to be bullied by them (a common tactic employed by the SJW among others) and they just go along to get along...regardless of what is truly right or just.

[bocca001]

Here is a recent pickup for me. I guess it is Keezer? Or a copy of Keezer? It's not a full-size pennant. Maybe 3/4 size. The material is strange too. Almost like cheese cloth.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here is a recent pickup for me. I guess it is Keezer? Or a copy of Keezer? It's not a full-size pennant. Maybe 3/4 size. The material is strange too. Almost like cheese cloth.

That's cool! One you don't see often, and really unique. There is a full-size orange version with that same graphic, but I like yours much better. Tough to find these white ones in such nice shape.

Great pickup, Marc!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here is a recent pickup for me. I guess it is Keezer? Or a copy of Keezer? It's not a full-size pennant. Maybe 3/4 size. The material is strange too. Almost like cheese cloth.

As I mentioned, mine came from South America. I really kind of think that’s where they originated.

Mine was 99 cents with $25 shipping

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

That's right. I will decide and every other person with a brain should too. Too many sheep in this country afraid to think on their own. But I think that will change soon. A lot of good people of all races are getting tired of the lunacy. PS...The world decided slavery was legal. And slaves were acquired from black brokers in Africa. So what exactly are you implying? I leave that rhetorical, as Mark said, there's a place for this conversation but it's probably not here.

How arrogant to claim that those who disagree with you don't have a brain, are "sheep." And who cares that you don't find the historical events being commemorated by these symbols offensive enough to warrant removal, enough others apparently do. And of course you missed my point entirely, that whatever overreaction and overreach in that regard pales in comparison to the suffering they represent. Feel free to fill your house with whatever historical representations you like, but I don't want to have to look at what you deem worthy to be celebrated in the public square.

[thetahat]

Circa 1954 Indians pennant, anyone know the maker?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Circa 1954 Indians pennant, anyone know the maker?

New pickup?? That’s a great flag!

[erikc21]

Also a great pickup, Marc! I’ve not seen that particular one!

Random question - anybody thinking about going to Nationals this year? I haven’t decided if I’m going, and I’ve never been, but if you’re thinking about going let me know!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Circa 1954 Indians pennant, anyone know the maker?

I believe this one to be by Trench based upon the dimensions, cloth material, and red spines. There's a similar graphic for the '56 NL champ Brooklyn Dodgers.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I believe this one to be by Trench based upon the dimensions, cloth material, and red spines. There's a similar graphic for the '56 NL champ Brooklyn Dodgers.

Respectfully … I’m not so sure about that. These seem radically different than Trench as far as design, graphics, etc. Do you mean red tassels? One thing they have in common (but for one below) is colored tassels with white spine. Trench almost all have matching tassels and spine, except it seems for some in the 1962-63 range.

I believe these are all from the same company …

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

Also a great pickup, Marc! I’ve not seen that particular one!

Random question - anybody thinking about going to Nationals this year? I haven’t decided if I’m going, and I’ve never been, but if you’re thinking about going let me know!

Not me, I’m strictly an Atlantic City guy, missed out on last year. But if you go, be sure to take some pics if you come across anything nice!

[Shoeless Moe]

1913 was the first year the New York American League Baseball Team was known as the Yankees, prior to this season they were the Highlanders.

Future HOFer Frank Chance was the new manager, thus the first ever "Yankees" manager, little known fact.

May 17, 1913 -- Frank Chance Day at Comiskey Park (Yankees at White Sox)

http://www.connectingthewindycity.co...ce-day-at.html

I can't find another one online or at any auction house (REA, Heritage, Huggins, Goldin, LOTG, SCP, etc.). If you know of another example please let me know.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Respectfully Â… IÂ’m not so sure about that. These seem radically different than Trench as far as design, graphics, etc. Do you mean red tassels? One thing they have in common (but for one below) is colored tassels with white spine. Trench almost all have matching tassels and spine, except it seems for some in the 1962-63 range.

I believe these are all from the same company Â…

Sorry: I meant red tassels, yes.

Radically different? I think itÂ’s more of a close call

Trench definitely used a white spine + colored tassels combo throughout the 1950s. You see that look on many different styles of Brooklyn Dodger pennants. But they also used the white spine + white tassel look then, too. (Even yellow spine + yellow tassels.). You are correct: by the early 1960s, at least on Los Angeles Dodgers pennants, they used red tassels + white spine + blue felt. That gave them a colorful look that of course complemented the teamÂ’s colors. I have no idea if they did that for other teams, or if it was a characteristic unique to the Dodgers.

Honestly I don’t think the color of the tassels is that helpful in ID’ing a pennant’s maker. I was more referring to the fact that your Indians pennant DID have tassels. That characteristic alone excludes WGN and ADFLAG from the discussion; and your mystery maker that we’ve all been consumed with identifying (the maker of the sliding runner series and the stiff arm footballer series — none of which featured tassels).

That really leaves Â… Trench, doesnÂ’t it? Tassels - check. Polychromatic artwork - check. Distinctive serif font - check. If the dimensions measure 8 x 26, and/or the itÂ’s made of flannel, thatÂ’s even more evidence itÂ’s likely by Trench.

Unfortunately, until we can extract the DNA from a pennant, weÂ’ll never really know no for sure who created it, right?

As to the four pennants you singled out Â… FWIW, IÂ’m confident the ca. 1950 Whiz Kids pennants is by Trench. IÂ’m on the fence as to the first Brooklyn pennant, which I think may be a phantom from 1951, perhaps? It looks like TrenchÂ’s work but IÂ’ve never seen it in person so IÂ’ll reserve judgment on that one.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by erikc21

We’ve covered this topic a lot, but I still enjoy a good before and after picture. I try to stay away from the color red, but this one improved quite a bit imho.

It’s a rainy and gloomy day here so the lighting doesn’t show the ‘after’ as well as I’d like.

Reds fan here, great job on a cool pennant. I never thought of cleaning a pennant. How did you do it?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Sorry: I meant red tassels, yes.

Radically different? I think itÂ’s more of a close call

Trench definitely used a white spine + colored tassels combo throughout the 1950s. You see that look on many different styles of Brooklyn Dodger pennants. But they also used the white spine + white tassel look then, too. (Even yellow spine + yellow tassels.). You are correct: by the early 1960s, at least on Los Angeles Dodgers pennants, they used red tassels + white spine + blue felt. That gave them a colorful look that of course complemented the teamÂ’s colors. I have no idea if they did that for other teams, or if it was a characteristic unique to the Dodgers.

Honestly I don’t think the color of the tassels is that helpful in ID’ing a pennant’s maker. I was more referring to the fact that your Indians pennant DID have tassels. That characteristic alone excludes WGN and ADFLAG from the discussion; and your mystery maker that we’ve all been consumed with identifying (the maker of the sliding runner series and the stiff arm footballer series — none of which featured tassels).

That really leaves Â… Trench, doesnÂ’t it? Tassels - check. Polychromatic artwork - check. Distinctive serif font - check. If the dimensions measure 8 x 26, and/or the itÂ’s made of flannel, thatÂ’s even more evidence itÂ’s likely by Trench.

Unfortunately, until we can extract the DNA from a pennant, weÂ’ll never really know no for sure who created it, right?

As to the four pennants you singled out Â… FWIW, IÂ’m confident the ca. 1950 Whiz Kids pennants is by Trench. IÂ’m on the fence as to the first Brooklyn pennant, which I think may be a phantom from 1951, perhaps? It looks like TrenchÂ’s work but IÂ’ve never seen it in person so IÂ’ll reserve judgment on that one.

Interesting. The 1954 Indians is full-size. Here’s a 1950 Trench Phillies. I don’t see anything in common here. Even the texture of the spine is different. … Can do same with the 1954 Indians … Trench made a few different versions for this season but they all share some common features. The one above just doesn’t seem to fit.

Now I agree not AdFlag or WGN, even though the latter did have tasseled pennants in the 1940s. I personally think this is another unidentified maker.