Of Demmitt & O'Hara......St. Louis Variations.

[tedzan]

Hey Todd

Your explanation here in another thread regarding Demmitt & O'Hara is quite well expressed. I'd like to follow it up here......

Originally Posted by bbcard1

......but Demmitt and O'Hara were traded to their new teams fairly late in the run and are only available in Polar Bear products with the new team designation and slight alterations to the pictures. They played very few games for their new teams and were not included in subsequent ATC offerings. Polar Bears were issued in the late part of 1910.

Here are excerpts from a March 2007 Thread on this same subject........ http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84748

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here's my take on these two rare T206 variations. First, I will start with their brief BB careers.

................... Demmitt ........................... O'Hara

Major League
1909.....NY Amer....123 games..............NY NL......115 games
1910.....St L AL.......10 games..............St L NL........9 games

Eastern League (AAA)
1910.....Montreal....130 games..............Toronto....122 games
1911.....Montreal....153 games..............Toronto....147 games

Major League
1914-19 (Det., Chi AL, St Lo AL)

Both players were featured 1st in the 350-only series (as NY players) with limited backs than most other T206 subjects in the 350 series. Demmitt is found
with Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350, Carolina Brights, EPDG, and Tolstoi. O'Hara is found with Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350, and Sovereign 350.
Note......POLAR BEAR backed T206's had not been printed yet..

Demmitt was traded in Dec. 1909 to St Louis AL and O'Hara at the start of 1910 to the St Louis NL. Circa mid 1910, American Lithographic started printing
350 series T206's (including the Demmitt & O'Hara St. Louis variations) for shipment to the POLAR BEAR chewing tobacco factory in Ohio. Meanwhile, both
Demmitt & O'Hara had been reassigned to Montreal & Toronto of the Eastern League, respectively. Therefore, American Litho. discontinued printing Demmitt
and O'Hara in their subsequent press runs of POLAR BEAR and other T-brands (PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, etc.) The POLAR BEAR exclusivity of these two vari-
ations is simply a matter of timing. My guess is that there are approx. 400 - 500 of the Demmitt & O'Hara St. Louis variations in circulation.






Furthermore, both Demmitt and O'Hara were printed in the 1912 Canadian Imperial Tobacco Company (C46) set.




TED Z collection

TED Z

[z28jd]

Ted, do you really think they stopped printing the cards with PB backs, or just because it was Polar Bear only, that is why there are only about 500 of each card? I don't think they stopped them, I think that is just how many are left. I don't think you would be able to pick out a bunch of common players and find more than 500 Polar Bear cards for all of them.

I think there is approx 500 of them left because they were no-name players, not worth a nickel the first 50 years they existed and only made with one back. There are 250 subjects with Polar Bear backs, meaning if they were pulled, and accounting for Hall of Famers being more likely to be saved, therefor more plentiful, you think there are about 250,000 Polar Bear cards out there(1,000 of each)? I think you could say 500x250 and get 125,000 shows that they probably weren't taken out of the PB run at any point because I highly doubt there are more than even 50k PB backs in existence today

[bbcard1]

Just a guess, but I am thinking is high...I would think more like 300 of each. I would be interested in everyones take on this...based soley on observations, I think the Dahlen Brooklyn is very nearly as tough as the Ohara and Demmitt variations...maybe as tough.

[Abravefan11]

I'll post my thoughts from the other thread to hopefully add to the discussion here.

Both Demmitt and O'Hara moved to St. Louis in late 1909. This was before any of the print group 2 (350 Only) subjects went into production. This means all of their New York cards were printed after they were already playing in St. Louis.

Both cards team designation changed prior to the last printing they were used for which was Polar Bear. This printing was more than likely in the late summer to early fall of 1910. I do not believe that either were printed anymore or any less than other Polar Bear subjects from print group 2.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Just a guess, but I am thinking is high...I would think more like 300 of each. I would be interested in everyones take on this...based soley on observations, I think the Dahlen Brooklyn is very nearly as tough as the Ohara and Demmitt variations...maybe as tough.

I think you're right that the Dahlen Brooklyn variation is nearly as tough, but it's not as tough. If I were to give you an estimate, I would say there are 10 Dahlen Brooklyns for every 7 Demmitt or O'Hara's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Ted, do you really think they stopped printing the cards with PB backs, or just because it was Polar Bear only, that is why there are only about 500 of each card? I don't think they stopped them, I think that is just how many are left. I don't think you would be able to pick out a bunch of common players and find more than 500 Polar Bear cards for all of them.

I think there is approx 500 of them left because they were no-name players, not worth a nickel the first 50 years they existed and only made with one back. There are 250 subjects with Polar Bear backs, meaning if they were pulled, and accounting for Hall of Famers being more likely to be saved, therefor more plentiful, you think there are about 250,000 Polar Bear cards out there(1,000 of each)? I think you could say 500x250 and get 125,000 shows that they probably weren't taken out of the PB run at any point because I highly doubt there are more than even 50k PB backs in existence today

John

My research indicates that the 1st POLAR BEAR (PB) press run (350-Only series) was limited. Large surveys (15,000 - 20,000 cards) of T206's indicate that the subsequent
PB press runs of the 350/460 series T206's and the 460-Only series T206's were were certainly more prolific.

Approx. 135 subjects (of 208) from the 350-Only series were printed with the PB back. Whereas, all 109 subjects of the combined 350/460 series and 460-Only series were
printed with the PB back.

So, if I'm understanding correctly what you are suggesting, I agree that American Litho. printed the same number of Demmitt (St Louis American) and O'Hara St Louis Nat'l)
cards as they did the other 350-Only cards. And, your 500 number (on the high side) sounds good to me


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Approx. 135 subjects (of 216) from the 350-Only series were printed with the PB back. Whereas, all 109 subjects of the combined 350/460 series and 460-Only series were
printed with the PB back.

TED Z

I'm not looking to split hairs, but for the sake of accuracy the Polar Bear numbers are as follows:

Print Group 2 (350 Only) = 136 (of 200)
Print Group 3 (350/460) = 62
Print Group 4 (460 Only) = 46
Print Group 6 (Super Prints) = 6

Total = 250

[g_vezina_c55]

Just 1 question off topic.
It is about the dahlen brooklyn rarity...it is arround same rarity of the elberfeld wash ?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Just 1 question off topic.
It is about the dahlen brooklyn rarity...it is arround same rarity of the elberfeld wash ?

Yes. The difference being Dahlen Brooklyn was printed with a Sovereign back and Elberfeld Washington was not.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Yes. The difference being Dahlen Brooklyn was printed with a Sovereign back and Elberfeld Washington was not.

Ok so the dahlen is only avalaible with sov back like ohara and demmitt is only avalaible with PB. Any other variation avalaible with only 1 kind of back except these 3 and magie ?

Thx for the info.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Ok so the dahlen is only avalaible with sov back like ohara and demmitt is only avalaible with PB. Any other variation avalaible with only 1 kind of back except these 3 and magie ?

Thx for the info.

No, sorry for the confusion.

Dahlen Brooklyn and Elberfeld Washington are both possible with the following backs:

Piedmont 350
Sweet Cap 350 No.25
Sweet Cap 350 No.30
Old Mill

Dahlen Brooklyn is also confirmed with Sovereign 350 Forest Green and Elberfeld is not.

[g_vezina_c55]

Now i understand sorry it is probably due to my poor english. Thx a lot for the info. I really love the picture of the dahlen

Thx

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Just a guess, but I am thinking is high...I would think more like 300 of each. I would be interested in everyones take on this...based soley on observations, I think the Dahlen Brooklyn is very nearly as tough as the Ohara and Demmitt variations...maybe as tough.

Todd

Your point is well made, the Dahlen (Brooklyn) is very tough. Is it as tough as the either the Demmitt or O'hara variations, in my opinion .. Yes & No.

This Dahlen with the PIEDMONT or SWEET CAP backs is not. If you are looking for the OLD MILL version, it is very close. And, if you are looking for
the SOVEREIGN card of Dahlen, trust me it is tougher. This card was one of the last cards I acquired to complete my all-SOVEREIGN set.









TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

t213demf.jpg

t213demb.jpg


First off, great Carter cards wtg.

The t213-2 version has 50-70 examples extant, at most. I agree with Ted's figures on PB backs at 3 to 5 hundred. This is not a rare card imo

For the purposes of this T213... DO NOT SOAK T213-2 They will fade into below Aut land.