Poll: do Baines and/or Smith belong in the Hall?

[calvindog]

If it's a player whose career I watched, I consider whether he was dominant during his era. Then I look at stats to see if it backs up my gut feeling. Lee Smith was pretty much a dominant closer in his time in my mind, or at least close to it. Baines was a top player but never really dominant. I think the stats bear that out. And lastly: how can anyone argue that Baines belongs in the HOF but Steve Garvey doesn't? Garvey was clearly a more dominant player during his career. Dave Parker probably too. I don't get it.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If it's a player whose career I watched, I consider whether he was dominant during his era. Then I look at stats to see if it backs up my gut feeling. Lee Smith was pretty much a dominant closer in his time in my mind, or at least close to it. Baines was a top player but never really dominant. I think the stats bear that out. And lastly: how can anyone argue that Baines belongs in the HOF but Steve Garvey doesn't? Garvey was clearly a more dominant player during his career. Dave Parker probably too. I don't get it.

Don't forget Dale Murphy or Don Mattingly or etc. etc.

[packs]

Why is the prevailing view that Smith was a dominant closer? Dominant in what way? He gave up almost a hit per inning over his entire career. Is there really all that much that separates him from John Franco?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

Why is the prevailing view that Smith was a dominant closer? Dominant in what way? He gave up almost a hit per inning over his entire career. Is there really all that much that separates him from John Franco?

I don't get it either. 1.256 WHIP. That's not even remotely dominant for a reliever.

No one thought they were watching a HOFer when Smith was pitching.

[barrysloate]

Nothing is the end of the world- well maybe the apocalypse and Armageddon are, but that's it- but it's clear from the numbers above, showing that Baines never received more than 6% of the vote, that his election was a product of HOF politics and knowing the right people.

[calvindog]

If ever a fraud was committed on the HOF this is it. A guy who gets a few votes over a few years is suddenly elevated and inducted over players who came close to getting in with votes over a 15 year period? It makes no sense and devalues the HOF. At least Lee Smith once got 50% of the vote. Baines got less than 10% of what Gil Hodges received -- and he's in and Hodges isn't.

[frankbmd]

I purchase the Hall Of Fame Plaque postcards directly from Cooperstown. I update my set every 4-5 years to bring it up to date. With the induction of Baines I am giving serious thought to discontinuing this endeavor. If Cooperstown doesn’t comp me the Baines PC, I’m outta there.

I’ll keep my fifty cents. Take that Cooperstown.

If I have offended any forum members with my “tough” talk, I apologize and beg for your forgiveness.

[CTDean]

I would pick Baines over Garvey, but then I have followed him since he played High School ball in St. Michaels, MD in the 1970's

Baines Hits - 2866 - Home Runs - 384 RBI's - 1628
Garvey Hits - 2599 - Home Runs - 272 RBI's - 1308
--
Baines ranks: 4th 3 Home Run games (3)
7th Grand Slams (13)
7th Walk Off Home Runs (10)
7th Games Played
10th RBI's

For me, it's not just about the stats a player puts up. It's what he gives to
the game of baseball and how he lives his life. Harold Baines gave MLB over 30 years as a player and coach, and his personal life had no issues.
I do agree that Steve Garvey also belongs. He did have those issues in his personal life that he termed his "midlife disaster".

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CTDean

I would pick Baines over Garvey, but then I have followed him since he played High School ball in St. Michaels, MD in the 1970's

Baines Hits - 2866 Home Runs - 384 RBI's - 1628
Garvey Hits - 2599 Home Runs - 272 RBI's - 1308

Baines ranks: 4th 3 Home Run games (3)
7th Grand Slams (13)
7th Walk Off Home Runs (10)
7th Games Played
10th RBI's

For me, it's not just about the stats a player puts up. It's what he gives to
the game of baseball and how he lives his life. Harold Baines gave MLB over 30 years as a player and coach, and his personal life had no issues.
I do agree that Steve Garvey also belongs. He did have those issues in his personal life that he termed his "midlife disaster".

Garvey had ten AS appearances to six for Baines despite six less seasons and 1100 less ABs.

Also Garvey had six top 10 MVP seasons (including five in the top six in the MVP vote) with one win; Baines had just two top 10 MVP years and never came close to winning one (highest vote total was ninth). Garvey was the much better player year in and year out and had a bigger impact on the league.

Garvey also won four Gold Gloves and Baines won none. All Baines has over Garvey is longevity, although Garvey retired with the most consecutive games played streak in NL history, including the fourth most all-time.

Lastly, and most galling, Garvey received 42% of votes to make the HOF in his best year; Baines? Highest percentage of votes was 6.1%. It's not even close.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Garvey had ten AS appearances to six for Baines despite six less seasons and 1100 less ABs.

Also Garvey had six top 10 MVP seasons (including five in the top six in the MVP vote) with one win; Baines had just two top 10 MVP years and never came close to winning one (highest vote total was ninth). Garvey was the much better player year in and year out and had a bigger impact on the league.

Garvey also won four Gold Gloves and Baines won none. All Baines has over Garvey is longevity, although Garvey retired with the most consecutive games played streak in NL history, including the fourth most all-time.

Lastly, and most galling, Garvey received 42% of votes to make the HOF in his best year; Baines? Highest percentage of votes was 6.1%. It's not even close.

Agreed. Garvey was considered by most people to be one of the top superstars in the game when he played, even if the advanced metrics indicate he was somewhat overrated. Not so with Baines.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If it's a player whose career I watched, I consider whether he was dominant during his era. Then I look at stats to see if it backs up my gut feeling. Lee Smith was pretty much a dominant closer in his time in my mind, or at least close to it. Baines was a top player but never really dominant. I think the stats bear that out. And lastly: how can anyone argue that Baines belongs in the HOF but Steve Garvey doesn't? Garvey was clearly a more dominant player during his career. Dave Parker probably too. I don't get it.

I agree completely on Lee Smith--a dominant closer for a long time. Baines, who I saw a great deal of, however, was, IMHO, a good player who was never ever one of the ten best players in the AL at any time while he was active, let alone the entire major leagues. He was simply an accumulator--a compiler, whose career stats would have been much more impressive had he put them together over 15 years or less, rather than 22. There has been virtually nothing but criticism over Baines' selection on MLB Now by not only the hosts but every knowledgeable guest. This was a veteran's committee that didn't have a clue, despite its apparent experience (it's always possible to have a great deal of experience and learn virtually nothing from it!). Baines as one of the top 1.3% to ever play ball? Does a bear knock on your front door to ask to come in to use the indoor toilet facilities? Not a chance!!!

Highest regards,

Larry

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If it's a player whose career I watched, I consider whether he was dominant during his era. Then I look at stats to see if it backs up my gut feeling. Lee Smith was pretty much a dominant closer in his time in my mind, or at least close to it. Baines was a top player but never really dominant. I think the stats bear that out. And lastly: how can anyone argue that Baines belongs in the HOF but Steve Garvey doesn't? Garvey was clearly a more dominant player during his career. Dave Parker probably too. I don't get it.

Agree with Jeff....Steve Garvey should be in, and Dale Murphy should be as well IMO....I dont get Baines or Smith being in the Hall.....Dale Murphy was back to back MVP's for a Braves team that was absolutely horrific...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Agree with Jeff....Steve Garvey should be in, and Dale Murphy should be as well IMO....I dont get Baines or Smith being in the Hall.....Dale Murphy was back to back MVP's for a Braves team that was absolutely horrific...

Murphy had 2000 less ABs than Baines -- and a lifetime WAR 8 points higher.

[calvindog]

This is what I really don't understand. Baines' HOF voting totals before getting in:

2007 BBWAA ( 5.3%)
2008 BBWAA ( 5.2%)
2009 BBWAA ( 5.9%)
2010 BBWAA ( 6.1%)
2011 BBWAA ( 4.8%)

Then in 2019 he gets in????? After never getting more than 6.1 % of the vote????

Garvey's HOF voting totals:

1993 BBWAA (41.6%)
1994 BBWAA (36.4%)
1995 BBWAA (42.6%)
1996 BBWAA (37.2%)
1997 BBWAA (35.3%)
1998 BBWAA (41.2%)
1999 BBWAA (30.2%)
2000 BBWAA (32.1%)
2001 BBWAA (34.2%)
2002 BBWAA (28.4%)
2003 BBWAA (27.8%)
2004 BBWAA (24.3%)
2005 BBWAA (20.5%)
2006 BBWAA (26.0%)
2007 BBWAA (21.1%)

And not a whiff from the Veterans' Committee.

[RichardSimon]

Baines had two guys lobbying very hard for him.
They must have been owed a few favors.

[CMIZ5290]

Baines getting in is a joke IMO....I dont get it. He had a batting average of .280 with the White sox for 14 years.....Big Deal! Lifetime average .289??? What am I missing??

[Peter_Spaeth]

I believe Garvey also had 6 or even more 200 hit seasons. There is no question that for a decade, he was an elite player. He was unpopular with the writers which surely hurt him in the voting.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Baines getting in is a joke IMO....I dont get it. He had a batting average of .280 with the White sox for 14 years.....Big Deal! Lifetime average .289??? What am I missing??

Lee Smith...71-92 W-L record, 3.05 ERA.....What am I missing with this guy? Is there any other pitcher in the Hall with a losing record?? Just saying....