2010 Standard Catalog...1st Impression

[ullmandds]

Today I went to my neighborhood Barnes and Noble and checked out the new 2010 Standard Catalog. The newer...slimmer book is much improved over previous iterations...but...I don't understand where the valuations are coming from. I realize this is just a "guide"...and prices may have been over-exhuberant in the not so distant past...but so many of the prices seem so far out of line? The e107's struck me as being way overvalued especially commons in vg condition...and most others seemed way undervalued...especially t213-1's...and most all caramel cards seemed pretty low as well. I'm in no way knocking this guide...as in general it is a wonderful resource...but to people "finding" cards...who have no idea as to current values...a lot of the valuations don't seem that relevant. Any other opinions would be appreciated.

[barrysloate]

After years of rapid price increases, guides often find themselves priced way over market. I haven't seen the 2010 edition yet, but assuming prices are say double what they should be, the publishers have a difficult task. If they cut them 50% from the last years' book, they will create the impression that the market collapsed. And dealers would be livid with them. Dealers love to see high prices in guides, and they are the ones who pay for the advertising each year. So at this point the guide's main purpose is to provide checklists, and to just give a vague sense of which cards are more valuable than others. As far as accurate pricing, you need to know the market.

Okay, you also mentioned some prices seem low. Harder to explain those other than to say caramel cards are pretty soft right now.

[John V]

The 2009 guide was about 2 1/2 inches thick. I have not seen the 2010. What does it measure?

[ullmandds]

I'd estimate it's 60-70% its former girth.

Barry...I see what you're saying...the checklists are certainly invaluable...I didn't really compare the prices from year to year to see if many went down...just an example that I remember because it is one of my favorite cards is the e90-1 keeler throwing card...listed at $400 in vg...down from $475 from the 2009 catalog...I still think that is much lower than you can buy the card for...but the decrease is an accurate indication that the value has come down comparatively to other cards in the set. E107 commons in vg listed at $2k...down from $2040 in 09'...seems overpriced to me...but down comparatively.

OK...never mind...pls delete this thread!!!!

[JLange]

I am a big follower of the standard catalog, and have owned many issues over the years, most recently the 2009 edition. I agree with Barry in that I have always only used the pricing as a guide, and looked to the market for current pricing. My real issue is the editorial decisions to remove sets previosly catalogued from The Big Book. I cite the 1975 jb robinson Cleveland Indians set, the 1963-69 Indians postcards, and the 1970s-80s Cleveland Indians photocards as examples, all of which were catalogued in previous editions but then removed. There has been reference made to possibly removing team picture packs in future editions. I understand that there are editorial pressures to balance size, scope, and salability, but I think of The Big Book as the collective wisdom of the hobby, and my first reference to turn to for any new pursuit. I expect it to catalog everything. Think of the Scotts Stamp catalogs (volumes of big books). How often is a stamp entry removed from those books? I understand the fringe sets don't appeal to everone, but that is my expectation and deciding factor for buying any future editions for my hobby reference library.

I apolgize to moving off topic. I can start a new thread as appropriate

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by JLange

I am a big follower of the standard catalog, and have owned many issues over the years, most recently the 2009 edition. I agree with Barry in that I have always only used the pricing as a guide, and looked to the market for current pricing. My real issue is the editorial decisions to remove sets previosly catalogued from The Big Book. I cite the 1975 jb robinson Cleveland Indians set, the 1963-69 Indians postcards, and the 1970s-80s Cleveland Indians photocards as examples, all of which were catalogued in previous editions but then removed. There has been reference made to possibly removing team picture packs in future editions. I understand that there are editorial pressures to balance size, scope, and salability, but I think of The Big Book as the collective wisdom of the hobby, and my first reference to turn to for any new pursuit. I expect it to catalog everything. Think of the Scotts Stamp catalogs (volumes of big books). How often is a stamp entry removed from those books? I understand the fringe sets don't appeal to everone, but that is my expectation and deciding factor for buying any future editions for my hobby reference library.

I totally agree. Are some sets on the CD that are not in the book though?

[barrysloate]

Jason- it's not off topic, but as you mentioned there are other considerations in the decision. Sometimes a book gets so large, with all the annual additions of card sets, that it becomes too big to bind. That happened with Leonard Maltin's movie guide. Every year he had to add another 30 pages or so to the book (which lists nearly every movie ever made). It reached the point where the book was too big to bind, so it was divided into classic movies and more current ones. Perhaps the Standard catalog has to deal with similar issues, as that book was starting to get really large.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jason- it's not off topic, but as you mentioned there are other considerations in the decision. Sometimes a book gets so large, with all the annual additions of card sets, that it becomes too big to bind. That happened with Leonard Maltin's movie guide. Every year he had to add another 30 pages or so to the book (which lists nearly every movie ever made). It reached the point where the book was too big to bind, so it was divided into classic movies and more current ones. Perhaps the Standard catalog has to deal with similar issues, as that book was starting to get really large.

Due to costs and profit pressue it might not work but I would still like to see something that is, maybe 1980 and back, and 1981 and forward. That way all of the sets that the pre-war collectors like could be kept in and the newer stuff, which is still being produced (probably beyond demand) can keep being added. Just a wish. I haven't seen a 2010 book yet....guess no Santa for me this year .

[Mark]

They could publish a pre-1980 volume in even years and a 1980-beyond volume in the odd. If the markets are stable, as they seem to be, this wouldn't be a problem for collectors or dealers.

[cozmokramer]

Do they list the 1887 N172 Old Judge's in the book?

[FrankWakefield]

Yes... 6 pages worth. And then 2 more pages for Hall of Famer pose variations. Good coverage of N172. And there's even more for the N173s.

The Standard Catalog is exactly that, the standard by which others are measured. This is the one to get.

[Bob Lemke]

The 2010 edition, at 1,368 pages, is 26% slimmer than the 2009. That's the result of the 2001-date major league cards being moved onto the accompanying CD.

No vintage sets or cards were removed, but none were added, either.

The page count for the book is set by corporate bean-counters with an eye towards print-cost efficiency and a cover price point that will maximize sales.
Once the editors are told what the page count will be, it is up to them to fill it with an eye towards serving the widest possible audience, not just vintage/advanced collectors.

This resulted in recent years in many "non-card" collectibles being removed from the book, so that the latest 20,000 new cards from Topps, UD, etc., could be presented.

Based on what I've seen happen in Krause/F+W's coin catalog division, I would expect that some attention is being given to the notion of putting the entire data base of vintage and modern issues onto a set of CDs, independent of the print edition. In the interim, I'd like to see some of the vintage stuff added to the CD that rides along with the print edition.

In the limited time that I have available by my contract with KP/F+W to maintain/enhance the vintage major and minor league sections, I have been trying to cast a critical eye on pricing that has remained virtually unchanged since the 2007 book. Many of the price revisions you'll see in the 2011 book will be the result of a rather ham-handed process, as opposed to card-by-card analysis of each set. Fine tuning will continue with each subsequent edition to try to bring the book's pricing columns into the real world . . . or as much so as can be done with an annual book that deadlines 6-9 months before it reaches readers' hands.

I am also, mostly on my own time, adding vintage issues to the data base in hopes that some day they will be made available in some fashion.

The reality of hobby reference book publishing is that ink-on-paper is SOOOO 20th century and that new ways have to be found to put this information into the hands of collectors on a basis that makes business sense for the publisher.

The collective expertise on this fourm, and the willingness to share information to benefit the continued future of the hobby is a big facotr in my willingness/ability to try to keep this project alive.

[buymycards]

I buy the big book every year, and each year I have questions about the pricing. I love the book for the checklists and references, but the price fluctuations from year to year can be puzzling. For instance, the T206 Demmitt in VG in the 2009 book was $3800 and the O'Hara was $4000. The 2010 book shows both of them at $6500 in VG. I don't subscribe to VCP, but I follow the Demmitt and O'Hara pricing in auctions and on ebay, and I don't see any valid reason for this large increase. The same increases are in place for many of the T206 HOFer's, even though the actual realized prices seem to have dropped off in the past year.

Rick

[ullmandds]

Bob...I think I can speak for most everyone in saying we all greatly appreciate the great work you've done to continue to improve the "bible!" as it DOES get better every year...and I agree books are so last century!!! I haven't yet purchased the 2010 book...I think I will today.

Can someone who has it tell me if the scarcities in the E102 set have been changed to reflect their actual value/scarcity...ie the Miller fielding and the doyle...I think it is. They are listed as commons in the 09'!

[hcv123]

Firstly a HUGE thank you to Bob Lemke for overseeing such a huge and critical ongoing project.

Second, some thoughts having an understanding of both the "business" side of things as well as the collector/dealer demand.

1) Supporting the idea Bob put out about including all issues on the cd version - specific pages could be printed as needed/wanted - would save a lot of paper (probably much more profitable) and be much more efficient - apology and understanding noted of those who don't have/use computers.

2) How about an internet based subscription? New information could be added more timely ("real time"). Subscribers could have an e-mail option when there are updates. Again a print option could be available. Subscriptions could be based on time or on number of sets. You can buy a subscription for a month, year, etc.. or for 30 sets, 100, sets or 1000 sets. Browsable for free by set title (no checklist or pricing info unless you subscribe)

3) Perhaps a partenreship with VCP - I am not a member and unfamiliar with their format or technology, but perhaps Bob/Krause supplies the card database and VCP keeps the pricing updated?

Happy collecting and be well.

-Howard "A Few of My Favorite Things" Chasser

PS. Always looking for rare and unusual Roberto Clemente items. Top 5 wants:

1) 1960 Complete bazooka box
2) 1958 Kahn's weiners
3) 1968 Topps Disc
4) 1960 Harmony Milk 8x10
5) 1962 Dapper Dan program

[Rich Klein]

But the biggest reason for keeping a print copy going is readers and users need to have something tangible if they are not buying an item on line.

Having said that; thanks to the abomination that was the early years of this decades when it came to new products being released (i.e. 90+ baseball products in 2004 before hitting team issues; etc.) caused the overload of pages.

I do agree with Bob that print is so 2000's but I personally, and I suspect most of the readers of this board, prefer to have something tangible to look up items with.

And the other; unspoken reason for keeping a print publication going is that having such a deadline always keeps on on their toes for new items. Out of sight, out of mind and especially so if such a book like the SC was only on line.

I may write more later, but with my experience I'd hate to see such a book fall by the wayside.

Rich

[sportscardtheory]

Is this better than the Beckett Almanac? The Beckett Almanac seems to be missing a LOT of vintage stuff I sometimes need to find.

[steve B]

I'd prefer dividing into 2 or more books to putting it all on cd.

Pretty much the only reason is that a book will last a long time, while a CD is only good till the technology changes.
Remember- Paper tape, magnetic tape, 8"floppy disc, 5 1/4 " floppy disc, 3.5" disc,....And CD is on its way out as well. Sure, the current DVD drives are backward compatible, but the next generation of media almost certainly won't be. So if the book ever stops being published, and there's no migration to new media, figure at most a decade before ALL the information in the book is lost.

I also find online or CD references to be very clumsy. Most aren't well indexed.
And switching back and forth between windows to find info about an item can be a bigger pain than just having the book open on my lap as I browse online. It's also pretty hard for some tasks to keep dragging the cards down to the computer from the room I keep them in.

[sportscardtheory]

Why don't they simply put the entire checklist with prices on a website and charge $10 a year for the updates and work put into it. Then they wouldn't have to worry about info fitting in a book. Then they could update the pricing more as well. They can still release a book, but the online service would be more cost effective.

[ullmandds]

it's nice to be able to read it on the pot...or in the tub...i like the book format..and it's ultimately easier to use than a computer.