My Ideas for Next Steps

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Firstly thank you all for the outpouring of support. I think almost everyone supports this in concept and as long as the boards are not crowded with the other posts I think almost all will be happy. I have gotten a lot of e-mails regarding ideas and I wish you would all post them here so they can be talked about. I would also refer you to Bruce Dorskind's post a week or so ago where he proposed a number of things. Lastly before listing my ideas of steps I would ask you all to remember that many dealers are taking light creases out of cards(some think this is fine) and that the microtrimming/reshaping of cards has been described as an epidemic--hopefully the top grading companies can stay on top of this.

Anyway, these are my ideas:

1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not.

2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?)

3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers

4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned.

5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors.

6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics.

7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics.

8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect.

Other steps such as some of the ones that Bruce suggested take time and money and the dedicated time of one or more people.

Anyway, I look forward to everyone's comments.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

My thinking would be to end your inquisition, or at least give us a break and keep it down to one thread.

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Posted By: dennis

how about the next step is starting your own net 54 board to discuss these issues.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[I think almost everyone supports this in concept.]

Obviously that's not true. And, in any event, McCarthy had supporters, too.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

So a code of ethics for the hobby is akin to McCarthyism--which items on my list don't you support?

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Posted By: peter ullman

i personally am pretty tired of all of this nonsense as well. this isn't medicine...it's not rocket science...it's a hobby...collecting pieces of cardboard with pictures of men in leggings...what the f$%k?

pete in mn

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Posted By: T206Collector

...the concept that is troubling, it's the measure of enforcement -- saying everyone loves you, when Leon has a post saying 50% of e-mails think you're killing Net54; suggesting that anyone that isn't supportive of a code of ethics isn't ethical; starting 15 posts asking auction houses to respond -- failure to respond results in the suggestion that such auction houses are unethical.

I have said in a previous thread that your credibility is good given that you stand to lose more than gain financially given what you're promoting as a high grade collector, but nobody likes to have leadership shoved down their throats like this. That's not leadership -- it's not taking the initiative -- it's being a bully. That's why you are faced with suggestions that what you're doing is akin to an inquisition or McCarthyism.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

ones you list but are YOU ready to man the helm, set up the office, collect dues and disburse checks, send out dealer packets, etc etc etc. I think the idea has been tried before. Not sure what the name was but there was one or more collector type endorsing agencies during the 1980's and it kinda fell through from what I can remember. The issues (and DOLLARS) are much larger now and it might gain legs, but someone has to be IN CHARGE. I know you've pushed these issues. Are you the man?

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Posted By: John S

Jim,

I respect your concerns and you have definitely made some valid points regarding the hobby. For me however collecting cards is nothing more than a recreational pursuit...a link to my childhood. I especially enjoy the history of the game. The cards are a link to earlier times. I simply cannot be that serious about sometime that I view as a pastime.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- your ideas are excellent but like everything else in this hobby and on this board, getting people to come to an agreement may be more difficult than trying to clean up the mess. But I would be interested to see how this all evolves.

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Posted By: leon

I spoke with Jim about this this morning. It's a great idea, imo, but just won't work as no one that wants it wants it bad enough to devote all of the time it will take. At the same time I think, if this stuff is so important, then this thread will stay on top, and on topic, and the rest of the threads can talk about cards. I do politely disagree with Barry a little bit. I think this board is resiliant and the hobby is FAR more resiliant and will still be fun for whomever wants it to be. It was a bad day for me yesterday on the board as it was for a lot of people. I guess if you were advertising it was a good day as we had 29,800 hits to the main page (a record by more than 6000 hits) and over 500 posts (another record by over 200).....Also, I might have had my first experience with not letting someone advertise because of the position they put me in late last night. I am still on the fence about it though. My guess is there might not be any advertising in the long run if I keep getting those insinuated "ultimatums" from advertisers....which might not be bad anyway.....Also, I guess that makes the few that will advertise get that much more bang for their buck...which they deserve.....take care and thanks again for all of the kind words and emails....they really are appreciated.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

These analogies seem awfully far-fetched.

As to the subject at hand, I don't have any great ideas on how to fix the problem. The nature of the problem is pretty simple and as I see it has three parts: (1) there are people who can do things to paper that grading services (and perhaps even the cognoscenti on this board) cannot, or do not have the time or resources, to detect; (2) it is hugely profitable; and (3) noone who knows the culprits is likely to rat them out in a meaningful way, either for fear of reprisal, or reluctance to get involved, or because they are part of the system.

There is some logic to Paul's (T206collector) approach, if I understand it correctly and forgive me if I am misstating it. If you can't tell, and a grading service can't tell, then don't worry about it.

That approach, however, for a variety of reasons, is not going to be satisfactory to many people. So how to change behavior?

My belief is that ultimately the only thing that might really make a difference is a government investigation (or perhaps private litigation), as happened I believe in the autograph segment. I have no idea how likely it is that any prosecutor would be sufficiently interested to take that investigation on. Private litigation poses a variety of challenges as well, although it would not be impossible.

Short of that, I think continued dialogue with the grading services (along the lines proposed by Dave Forman) would be very helpful. I would like to know a lot more about their operations and what they are doing to keep on top of detection, for example, and would also like to know how much time is spent reviewing cards, whether all cards are examined under a blacklight, and so on and so forth. Maybe there should be tiers depending on the level of scrutiny you want your card to go through. I don't know, just some thoughts.

Also, I think it would be very helpful if some of the esteemed members of this Board, including those so contemptuous of Jim's effort, shared their knowledge on how to spot alterations in some sort of comprehensive organized way. I recognize the internet is not the best medium for this, but I still think there is value there.

Without intending any offense to anyone, I am a bit skeptical at this point of the utility of Codes of Ethics etc. unless there is some meaningful way to detect and punish violations, and I see significant issues as to both.

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Jim,

Been there, done that, still have the t-shirt. Good intentions but still ain't gonna happen.

Jack

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Posted By: Jay

Jim--Maybe the best idea is that, along with Leon, you set up a committee to go forward and try to put together a draft of what is acceptable and what is not. This draft, after completed, could be run by the board for comments. After a few iterations you may have something that could form the basis for an industry watchdog group. This would probably move things along more quickly and, at the same time, allow the board to breathe and return discussions to mainly vintage cards.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I think this is an important issue, and unfortunately it's not one that only affects collectors of high-grade material. It's also not one that only affects collectors of GRADED material.

I also don't think this is an inquisition, or an issue of legality. It's an issue of consumer confidence. I've used this example multiple times in the last few days, but when a group of vegetarians wants to find out if McDonald's is using beef tallow in their fry oil, they expect a response. Not everyone is a vegetarian, and not everyone cares, but that doesn't make the question any less legitimate.

The questions may not be of interest to everybody, but they are clearly of interest to some. The answers may be painful to hear, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard.

And lastly, I don't think it's Jim's questions that have polluted these threads. Jim has been very polite and has stayed very much on point throughout all of this. It's all the ancillary questions, backbiting, agenda pushing, accusations and personal attacks that have caused all the digressions.

I do like the idea of keeping it all in one thread, though.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Paul,

I don't need to be on a Board of Directors--I am not doing it for myself--I am doing bthis for the hobby.

I have been constantly looking for suggestions.

I don't see it as 50/50--the complainers call Leon, some are just upset that these posts are dominating the board which they won't in the future, and somre are upset because they have consignments with the big auction houses(relax, this will have no effect.

Leon,

It won't work if you are on here saying it won't work. If a large number of people think these are troubling issues then there ought to be something that can be done. I am also happy that you are standing up to potential advertisers(not that I thought you would not) and not letting their potential business alter your thinking.

I have no alternative agenda--please keep the suggestions coming.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

I gave my opinion. It counts as 1. .......just like everyone else's. IF it will work then me saying it won't, won't make a difference. If Barry Halper couldn't do it back in the day, and no one is stepping up to the plate to take charge now, then my view stands. I hope I am wrong.....

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Posted By: John Walters

Hi Jim, the Goodwin thread where you called Dave Forman a hero is locked, so I will post here, but you said "what heroes like Dave Forman are doing to combat it."

Do you remember this thread? You may want to do some more homework.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1091141182/last-1091239958/Thoughts+on+SGC+and+grading+in+general

Steve Verkman, will you please elaborate?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Just saying if a big percentage of us think its a problem, lets try to move forward with a solution and be upbeat that we can achieve one.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

I don't believe it.

Jim

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Posted By: Kyle

Why not start your own auction house in which you gaurantee all the cards/items for sale are unaltered?

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Posted By: Wesley

It is certainly worth a try. Perhaps a committee of six people who are all passionate about the hobby but with differing opinions would work out best for this card police activity. I would nominate the following:

Jim Crandell
Leon
Doug Allen
Jeff Litchman
Steve Verkman
Brian Drent

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have a job.

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Posted By: Wesley

So you think the committee should consist of only unemployed collectors?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- what you may find is little resistance by the honorable dealers to join such an organization, but you may not even be able to weed out and identify the culprits who operate under the radar and cause all the problems. It is likely that the paper restorers who are creating many of these bad cards are not known by us and sell their work to fringe dealers who then take them to shows, sell them, and disappear. These invisible problems may be the major source of the hobby's problems and these guys may never be identified, nor will they join a committee.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wesley,

Sorry--that comment was for Kyle.

I think its an open question for debate whether the group should be just collectors or a group of collectors and dealers and possibly graders.

Your suggested group would be an interesting one.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

My personal belief, and it is just that, is that paper restorers are working a lot closer to the surface than Barry thinks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- what do you mean by close to the surface? I am not asking you to name names, but are they identifiable?

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Yes, Barry, many people including well-known dealers know who they are and work with them -- in my opinion, of course. Some dealers may even have that expertise themselves -- in my opinion.

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Posted By: howard

Inquisition? McCarthy? Why stop there? Hitler and Stalin had plenty of supporters also. One of McCarthy's supporters, by the way, was lefty favorite Bobby kennedy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry, Perhaps but I don't think so.

Dave and Joe know who is giving them the bad cards. They are on their guard in regards to these people. If the reputable dealers get behind this they can be helpful as well.

I think it would in greater awareness of who these people are and hindering their activities.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

To clear up the record(this was pointed out to me in one e-mail), I feel the same way about Brian Drent as I do about JP and Bill. I think he is an honest dealer who would prefer not to post his thoughts here..

Jim

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Posted By: whitehse

Again as a small time collector maybe I am a voice in the wilderness. The recent postings has opened my eyes even wider to issues in this hobby. I think we all knew things like this were happening but to get some sort of confirmation was very alarming.

But at this point dont you feel that the attention that has been brought on these issues is enough to wake up the collectors in this hobby?? I mean to be honest I have been in this hobby for 30 years or more and I know the idea of a "collectors association" has been tried and failed miserably. I am not trying to be a jerk but I guess my question is this....what will make this attempt any different than all the others?? what will this association offer that others didnt?

I guess at this point in time maybe you should rest in the fact that light was shed on a dark corner of our hobby and at this time buyers should be aware!! Fool me once shame on you....fool me twice shame on me!

I do appreciate the effort that was put in place here and I can say if I am ever in the position to be able to do bidding with auctions houses I do know who I will and will not spend my hard earned money with. I think everyone here has been able to make up their minds regarding who they are spending money with and they dont need a seal of approval from a association that might not be here in 2 years.

just my 2 cents

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Posted By: Josh Adams

And here I was thinking that by this morning, there wouldn't be any more new threads. Ahhh!! Can we just give it a rest?!

"I am not doing it for myself--I am doing this for the hobby."

Sure.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Whitehse,

Perhaps you are right--we could stop now and be content that we effected some positive changes and raised awareness.

I think what could make this succeed this time is that the issues are greater and there is more collector demand for it.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

With all due respect and nothing personal I think this one thread is a great compromise......Surly anyone can not open 1 little ole thread if they don't want to. How about starting a good one yourself? take care

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Posted By: shane

Jim- Everyone has a job.
Leon-you are the best! Keep up the good work.
Verkman- I hope you get your 5'2", Herve' Velache, (i don't know the midgets correct spelling, but he always said Da Plane, Da Plane), tight jean wearin', rude biatch hirin', and overgrading raw material a$$ sued for all of your liable comments yesterday. Please stop sending me that .04 cent catalog you call an auction to my office immediately. I wouldn't use that 20 page catalog, full of starting bids of $12 for VG/EX commons from 1954, to use as a floor covering for my bird cage. You ought to talk about the time you sold me 4 colored 1971 Topps Greatest moments at the National. I returned them and you took them back, but then sold them to another collector the next day without mentioning that they were still colored.
Character is all a person has. Money can't buy you a reputation or character. You are born with that-just like your 25' legs.
I don't have a problem calling a spade a spade. I don't have a problem calling out a dealer for wrong doings, but for you to come out on these boards and post damaging statement towards a dealer and can't even remember the facts is wrong.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Perhaps the most illuminating post I have read on the many threads discussing this issue was Leon's reciting the substantial increase in hits and posts yesterday when this issue reached crescendo. To me at least that signifies that what we are discussing has hit a chord. While I respect very much those who opine we have beat this issue to death, or that the issue should not have been raised in the first place, and that I do agree we would have been better off without some of the negativism and innuendos (a point I might add which I believe applies to many other threads), I do feel this whole issue of card doctoring is a legitimate one for this Board and indeed is as productive and relevant a topic as this Board has ever discussed.

Edited for spelling

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In the early 1990's an organization of Dealers was formed called "Sports Collectibles Association
International"....SCA. It had good intentions and lots of promises. But, it did not last too long;
although, many "big time" guys in the hobby joined it and promoted it.

BB card collectors, and especially dealers, are a very independent lot. Trying something like this
now is doomed to fail....again.

All is not lost, though, Jim can contact his Congressman and have him initiate a Congressional
Hearings to investigations of all BB card dealers and collectors....as to the integrity of the cards
in their collections.

Congress will then refer to it as the House Unethical BB Card Inquisition Committe (HUBBSIC).
And fair warning....we can all be expected to be subpoenaed before Congress.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Shane,

My answer of I have a job was to the question why don't I start my own auction house?

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

Thanks for your post.

Your reasoned voive adds substantially to the discussion.

It is the big big topic in the industry and we ought not to sweep it under the rug.

Jim

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Posted By: Jay

Shane--Are you saying that Steve has a 5'2" ass? That is very big! We must have different tastes but I can only commend Steve's hiring practices--especially with respect to his assistant at the National two years ago.

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Posted By: John

1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not.

Ok, but how will this be enforced??

2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?)

Has to include all parties, to be fair and protect the interests of all parties included in the system.

3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers

Nice in thought but virtually impossible to enforce, unless a dealer/auction house just plain got caught you would never know. I also think it’s a bit like a code of ethics for life we all know what is fundamentally right and wrong but still cant really stop people from doing it with rules per say. People will say or sign anything most of the time, with little or no thought regardless of ethics.

4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned.

Once again how will this be enforced?

5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors.

Impartiality, and are they currently involved or had involvement with anyone in which they will be implementing this policy upon? Once the policy is agreed upon how is it enforced?

6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics.

Getting them wont be an issue, enforcing however….

7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics.

Means nothing, sort of like the “World’s best cup of coffee” sign in half of the dinners in the world.

8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect.

Great but unless its enforced, its little more than a comfort feeling, sort of like your mom saying you’re the best kid in the world. Might make you sleep better, but what’s it really doing for you?

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Posted By: John

This concept is nothing new; in fact many industries employ this same type of concept from the steel, lumber, food, drug etc. Below is the formula in which they follow if you’re interested. The trick then becomes how do you implement the below into our hobby. I think its virtually impossible. But I will say I feel the below guidelines are the only true and effective way of regulating any industry. All other ways are essentially non enforceable or pointless.


1.These regulatory firms are non-profit, they garner what little income they do receive which goes to employ their staffs and cover expenses, from the very companies in which they are in a way policing. Budgets, incomes & officers are also set buy a board of directors set by the companies who particapte in the system.


2.In return these companies which in this case would be (Dealers, Graders, Auction Houses) who financially support these regulatory firms get their so called “Good House Keeping” seal of approval. Although its much more complex than that for the above types of industries, and the benefits are different.


3.As to protect the best interest of the parties that are being regulated once again (dealers, auction houses, graders) these companies or who ever agrees to be a part of the non-profit organizations regulating, is allowed to appoint board members to regulate and police the very firm they have agreed to be audited by. Generally these board members are very successful retired industry people within their field. Board members are generally changed every 2-3 yrs.


4.How does the regulatory non-profit firm work? They in a fact establish with the people they are watching over and enforce a list of rules or “code of conduct” if you must. The non-profit firms carry out routine inspections and surprise inspections and report cards are kept. Those companies that have fantastic report cards obtain many benefits to being policed in this manner. Those who don’t are eventually not included in these benefits any more, or are given ample time to correct. It is also important to note that not all of the above industries comply or partake in this system, only the ones who would like to benefit from it.


5.Employees or inspectors for the non-profit regulatory company. Technically cannot be involved or receive financially gain from the industry in which they are regulating. They also have to draw a very direct line regarding relationships etc. No gifts, fancy dinners and no business dealings with the company they inspect etc. All of this is set buy the companies that have chosen to be policed, board members. All of the above are viewed as major conflicts of interest. You can only imagine if a buddy of Dave Forman’s was inspecting PSA even if nothing was going on other than the connection, the implications and or potential for financial gain over there competitor would be unacceptable to anyone who is a part of the system. Also any findings via PSA could be disputed and therefore would lose credibility.


6.Yearly meetings are held between the employees & officers of the regulatory firm and the board members from the appointed companies that the regulatory firm manages.


There are some other nuances to the above system, which I would gladly elaborate on if you would like that should put you in the right direction. All in all don’t think your idea is a bad one Jim, in fact others before you have had similar ideas. The issues facing you how do you find un-biased parties who have very little dealings within such a small industry as this, the keys are un-biased and with little or nothing to gain from the situation other than their paycheck.

I said yesterday in my first response, nice concept but to do it right will take time money and boatload of effort. Even Leon in a way echoed that same view that finding the people willing to devote this time, money etc. will be a very tough job.

Take what you want from the above, good luck in your project.

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Posted By: Mike

Ted

"I refuse to talk about the past"

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John(Wonka),

Should it proceed to that point would you be interested in serving with me on a committee or a Board or whatever to work on this?

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Of course Congress is not going to investigate but it is at least possible that if cases of alteration could be well documented, a zealous prosecutor somewhere might be interested given the size of the industry. This did happen in autographs as I understand it, perhaps someone can correct that impression if it is wrong. One could track certain purchases on ebay, for example, and certain sales a month or two later and show patterns of significant "improvements" in cards -- distinctive markings or features show that they are the same cards. And I am sure there are other ways to build a case, for example, obviously stuff was done to the Lajoie card we have seen scans of. Collectively these would support an inference that something untoward is going on. But who among us is willing to make that effort or to come forward? Especially if the evidence suggests a friend may be among the culprits?

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Posted By: John

Jim, I would be happy to give any and all input during that process.

As far as committee or board seeing as I have purchased items from several of the auctions houses. It could be viewed as a conflict of interest, and subject to board approval of the people we would be working with per say. But we can always cross that bridge when we get there, also I do believe there is a gray area here in which we could tweak the above to fit or hobby. I don’t think it has to be as black and white, but it needs to be very close to be effective.

At the very least I could help you spearhead or give some insight along the way if you would like??

Also I hope you understand how much work this would be??? Also no money to be made, and quite frankly daddy needs Plank and Magie so a lot of my time is spent on more capitalistic ventures. LOL

Feel free to drop me an email and we will swap info.

Best regards,

John

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks John,

Appreciate your offer and ideas; time is a big issue with me as well.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

If there is one thing that is clear from these threads, there is nothing even close to a consensus among collectors, dealers and auction houses as to what are acceptable and unacceptable alterations. At the extremes everyone can agree, but in between there is a great variance of views. I would be curious how a representative group could ever establish a consensus industry standard in light of this divergence of views. Perhaps the better solution would be to agree on disclosure practices -- although of course compliance would be a huge issue given how much is undetectable.