Contemporary Baseball Era Committee for Managers/Executives/Umpires for Hall of Fame

[mainemule]

Thoughts on Contemporary Baseball Era Committee for Managers/Executives/Umpires for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2024

https://baseballhall.org/discover/Co...ates-announced

Does Cowboy Joe West merit induction for all time games leader as an ump?

To me, none of these jump off the pages as Hall of Famers.

[jayshum]

I agree that I don't see anyone that I think is an obvious choice. I hope West doesn't get in. Other than longevity, what makes him deserving?

[conor912]

Pretty hard to see a world where Pinella doesn’t get in at some point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside, Piniella's lifetime WAR as a player was only 12.4. That's shocking to me.

[G1911]

This list does not seem like it has serious candidates on it. I guess someone will get in based on who the voting members like the most.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I agree that I don't see anyone that I think is an obvious choice. I hope West doesn't get in. Other than longevity, what makes him deserving?

Agree! Joe West was awful.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by conor912

Pretty hard to see a world where Pinella doesn’t get in at some point.

I would agree if he had a second title as a manager. But he only had one. On the surface, he and Leyland have similar managerial records.

And we know Cito has two titles but I do not see him getting in. There are other 2 time winners who will likely not ever get in either- Houk and Tom Kelly.

I know Danny Murtaugh has been on ballot a couple of times. Bill Carrigan is an interesting candidate as he won 2 as a player manager but he had a short managerial career.

Dusty, Tito and Bochy certainly get in as future managerial selections.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Agree! Joe West was awful.

If he gets in let's also put in Angel Hernandez

[packs]

It is so bizarre to me that someone like Hank Peters would appear on this list. The front office / general manager-type who belongs in the HOF is Gene Michael and he's not on this list.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

If he gets in let's also put in Angel Hernandez

: puke-icon:

[theshleps]

So hard to predict these things when we look at other marginal candidates that have gotten in. I wouldn't be surprised if none got in and wouldn't be surprised if a few do despite that they may not be deserving

[BioCRN]

As someone who has spent many years snagging Jim Leyland 1986/87 slabs on the cheap, I'm hoping to cash in on the gamble much like 1960 Jim Kaat paid off. That said, I amassed 38 Kaat cards, but only 11 Leyland cards over the years...Leyland graded on the cheap was a bit harder to come by.

I don't have a lot of ballcard hustles, but "overlooked possible" HOF'rs has been a nice niche to turn smaller investments into payoffs that funds things I actually want.

I got a slew of Billy Wagner waiting around, too. Those have gone from "cheap" to being subject to other speculators the last 2-3 years, though.

[Exhibitman]

Hall of Meh...

[rhettyeakley]

Joe West in the HOF would be a joke! One of the worst umpires in the history of the game and an all-around dbag.

[Casey2296]

Joe West has never been a HOF caliber umpire, unless there is a "lets make it all about me" wing.

[packs]

I think one of the hardest criteria to understand for the HOF is the manager. What makes someone a HOF manager? I'm pretty sure the magic number is winning three World Series. I don't think there's a single manager to win three other than Bochy (who isn't yet eligible) that isn't in the HOF.

But what else? I thought Cito Gaston sounded like a silly nomination but what really separates him from Tommy Lasorda? They both won two World Series titles and that's all there really is to say about either of them.

Then there's Whitey Herzog. Why is he in? He won a single World Series and what's really separating him and Jim Leyland?

[brianp-beme]

Judge Landis was caught on camera with this reaction to any potential candidates nominated from this ballot.

Brian

[theshleps]

Whether Leyland, Piniella, Johnson, Gaston get in will be political depending on who the voting committee is, what teams they favor, personal relationships with the candidates etc. We have seen that before and will see it again and again. As an autograph collector I try to get each of the guys before the vote just in case they get in and the price goes crazy but then I also get stuck with lots I do not need

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

If he gets in let's also put in Angel Hernandez

First ballot Hall of Shamer !

[raulus]

Does attitude and stank eye get bonus votes?

https://youtu.be/yZPevbDtCbM?si=CZaCdvz24WOZetvi

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Hall of Meh...

+1 on that, sir. That is what it has become, sure enough.

[Klrdds]

I agree the nominees are marginal at best. But let's not forget that Cooperstown likes lots of new inductees for the tourism dollars it generates for the town and with that being said Piniella, Johnson and Leyland might generate some additional fans and dollars there for induction weekend. I'm not being political just practical but if the Hall goes with inclusion then White and Cito could get in ( granted they both had very good playing careers as well as post-playing baseball careers ...but HOF type careers I don't think so ).

[rhettyeakley]

If I were an oddsmaker I think Piniella has the best shot for induction of the Managers just due to name recognition as a player and then Manager.

I just don’t see much here that really makes sense as HOF material. I am biased towards Piniella though as a Mariners fan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think one of the hardest criteria to understand for the HOF is the manager. What makes someone a HOF manager? I'm pretty sure the magic number is winning three World Series. I don't think there's a single manager to win three other than Bochy (who isn't yet eligible) that isn't in the HOF.

But what else? I thought Cito Gaston sounded like a silly nomination but what really separates him from Tommy Lasorda? They both won two World Series titles and that's all there really is to say about either of them.

Then there's Whitey Herzog. Why is he in? He won a single World Series and what's really separating him and Jim Leyland?

Yeah almost nothing of what they do on a day to day basis can be measured. I think it's very hard to know who is a good manager unless you really follow a team closely. Wins of course and even WS are probably much more a function of the team than the manager.

I think Piniella is most likely of this group to get in. Bill White seems to have a great reputation so maybe him too.

[Misunderestimated]

I expect Bill White to get in ... He's pushing 90 so it would nice if they put him in now. i think he's inevitable.

[FrankWakefield]

Of the nominees, in my opinion, Bill White should get in, and probably will get in.

I am fairly sure that I've suggested (argued) with folks here about how someone should be in because he was better than someone else who already got in... And I wish I hadn't. Think about it... "having made one mistake, well hot damn, let's make another mistake." I do think that there are players in the Hall who shouldn't be in. We can't take them out. We don't fix it by adding more marginal (or slightly below) players. Truthfully, we can't do anything but discuss it here, and whine about it with folks we encounter.

White's WAR is about 3 times what Pinella's is. And that should not matter. Connie Mack's WAR was half of Pinella's. Mack should be in as a manager, and moreso because he "trained" a bunch of players who later became managers and coaches, all of whom were better baseball men for having learned from Mr. Mack. Ditto for John McGraw, what a genealogy tree Mr. McGraw would have. And ditto for Branch Rickey (WAR 0.6). The game is better now because of Mr. White's efforts in the Commissioner's office. I don't know of much that Pinella did that made the game better.

[The Detroit Collector]

Biased opinion, but I want Jim in.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Pinella and White wouldn't bother me. I'd put Froemming in long before West.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Pinella and White wouldn't bother me. I'd put Froemming in long before West.

Bruce Froemming is a HOF umpire, incredible career, 50 years in the game, incredible integrity, respected the game, was fair, and never made it about himself.
The other guy who should get in is John McSherry, RIP, and Eric Gregg, RIP.

[Misunderestimated]

I think the two best GM-Execs of the contemporary ERA are not on the ballot:
Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman.
Both are relatively young and Cashman (who might be the most perfectly named figure in baseball history) is still an active GM.

[G1911]

What I am missing? White was a league president for five years. Is there some huge achievement I'm not aware of? What's the merit here?

[Misunderestimated]

SABR Bio for Bill White:
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill...ports%20league.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

I think the two best GM-Execs of the contemporary ERA are not on the ballot:
Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman.
Both are relatively young and Cashman (who might be the most perfectly named figure in baseball history) is still an active GM.

Theo is on the Contemporary Era committee. It's either too early or a great way to stuff the ballot box depending on how you look at it.

Even if one wants to pick apart the true merits of Theo, getting BOS + CHC to win a World Series...yeah, he's in. He slayed 2 dragons in 2 cities as an executive before turning 50.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Theo is on the Contemporary Era committee. It's either too early or a great way to stuff the ballot box depending on how you look at it.

Even if one wants to pick apart the true merits of Theo, getting BOS + CHC to win a World Series...yeah, he's in. He slayed 2 dragons in 2 cities as an executive before turning 50.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

What I am missing? White was a league president for five years. Is there some huge achievement I'm not aware of? What's the merit here?

I believe White himself lamented that despite his best efforts, he wasn't able to change much in terms of getting more Black executives hired in baseball.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I believe White himself lamented that despite his best efforts, he wasn't able to change much in terms of getting more Black executives hired in baseball.

You see where I'm going here. Nobody is going to be able to identify any major accomplishment because he had none. The job was so important that it ceased to exist a few years later when the leagues officially merged in, with most power having been centered in the commissioners office for decades already. I fail to see a merit based argument here and I don't think anyone will even try to make one.

[MVSNYC]

I have to say, I think all 4 managers are likely worthy. And I'd rank them as such:

Leyland, Piniella, Johnson, Gaston

[mainemule]

The BBWAA will likely vote in at least a couple of players from Beltre, Mauer, Helton, Wagner, Jones, so there will be an induction ceremony summer 2024.

In further reading about the Contemporary candidates I don't see anyone that jumps out at me as a selectee.

Gaston, Pinella, Johnson and White had nice playing careers but they are being considered as managers/executives. Torre was elected as a 4 time WS winning manager, not because of his playing career.

[Rich Klein]

My instinct says Leyland 1st, Piniella 2nd and as I grew up watching/listening to Bill White announce Yankees games I do have a soft spot for hoping he gets in.

To me the HOF need a contributor way of getting in and Bill White would get in that way (As Buck O'Neil should have gotten in all those years ago)

Rich

[packs]

I would like to see a special election for contributors too. I feel like Lefty O’Doul is long overdue in that category.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by packs

I would like to see a special election for contributors too. I feel like Lefty O’Doul is long overdue in that category.

Absolutely.

Thread needs a card

[Fred]

Any support or consideration for Harry Pulliam as an executive?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

SABR Bio for Bill White:
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill...ports%20league.

Brian that was a nice article.
White was a All Star caliber player, a decent announcer & the N.L. President

Here's my favorite White item an oversized Rawlings Premium, which was too big for my scanner bed.

[Misunderestimated]

While White's lofty ambitions and goals as a contributor were not fully realized I think his status and advocacy as a contributor (and a racial pioneer) are what the HOF will want to honor while he is still alive. Also,, following his retirement White was a voter on the Veterans Committee from 1994-2001.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

If he gets in let's also put in Angel Hernandez

Yes, because that would mean he was out of umpiring for a few years

[perezfan]

Bob Howsam built the Big Red Machine. And on a very small budget, to boot. Whether or not he deserves enshrinement is one thing, but I would put him up against every single nominee on that mediocre list.

[Misunderestimated]

Best Managers (modern era) not in HOF:

Terry Francona
Bruce Bochy
Dusty Baker
(Bochy and Baker are the only 2 over 2000 Wins not yet in the HOF -- Francona made it to 1950)

Then

Pinella
Leyland
Gaston (he didn't quite win 1000 games which is historically low for a HOF Manager who wasn't a player/manager)
Davy Johnson
---
Raloh Houk
Joe Maddon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nagers_by_wins
======

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bochy has 2100 losses too.

[Fred]

Bochy has (4) WS appearances and (3) WS titles. He's done well with clubs that were considered "small markets" with really conservative budgets. Now that he's with Texas and a team with a HUGE player budget, he seems to have done pretty good, not that he was horrible with the Padres and Giants.

The thing that holds Bochy back are more managerial losses than wins lifetime.

Hey, anybody have any thoughts on Harry Pulliam as an executive?

From Wikipedia:

"Harry Clay Pulliam (February 9, 1869 – July 29, 1909) was an American baseball executive who served as the sixth President of the National League. He served from 1903 until his death in 1909. He was president during the period in which the National League and the fledgling American League settled their hostilities and formed a National Agreement which led to the creation of the World Series."

[jayshum]

It's hard to decide how to rate managers because it depends so much on the players they have to work with. When Terry Francona was managing the Phillies, no one talked about how great he was as a manager, but the Phillies didn't have very good teams then. Bochy is a little under .500 for his career but has won 3 World Series so is he a Hall of Fame manager with a record under .500?

Was Joe Torre a great manager or was he just lucky to be the Yankees manager when Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter (among others) happened to be on the team? When he was hired by the Yankees, the New York Daily News called him Clueless Joe based on his prior managing career which was well under .500 before he got to the Yankees. Did the Yankees win 4 World Series because of him or in spite of him being the manager?