PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Won this one off Ebay, received it today....and, I am very disappointed. It does not look like an Ex card to me.
I can't blame the seller....but, I certainly do fault PSA.

I paid more than I wanted to for this Evers....but, with a Sovereign 460 back....it is very, very tough to find. It
is the 1st one I have seen in two years.
So, I hate to admit this; but, I was stuck paying for the # on this label. Guys, I know you are tired of hearing this
from me.....but, this Grading business (in many instances) is just an "ARBITRARY ART"....and, not as "Professional"
as we deem it to be. Basically, I am a collector of UN-GRADED cards and being forced to pay more for cards that
are supposedly "professionally graded" .... really "SUCKs" ! !

This Evers card is no better than a Vg-Ex graded card, in which I would've paid 1/2 the amount that I paid for it.

I'm curious how others on this Forum feel about the fact that a 3rd party can "DICTATE" how much you're going
to pay for a card that you are interested in....when it should only be a judgement between Buyer and Seller ?

And, with this card being O/C and the lower right corner flaw.....HOW DO YOU GUYS GRADE IT ?

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's a nice 4 except for the centering.

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Posted By: Cy

Ted,

I am curious about something. Ted, did you see a scan of the card with the centering and lower right corner before you bought it? Or did you buy the card without looking at a scan?

Cy

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, it's a 4 - but centering is not an issue for 4s as it is for 7s, 8s, etc.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Having a Sovereign back should help the value. I agree with Barry. Should probably be in a PSA-4 holder, but with perfect centering could stretch it to a low end PSA-5
Yes, grading companies are dictating the market.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Of course I saw it....but, the lower right corner flaw was not evident. And, I guess I was a fool for thinking
that it was accurately GRADED.

But, read again my post....the determining factor for acquiring this card was its Sovereign 460 back. This is
an extremely rare back for this Evers card. And, I need it to complete my SOVEREIGN-only set.

I'd have been very satisfied with a "NAKED" Vg-Ex card with this front/back combination......but, I was not
going to wait another 2 years for it to surface.

TED Z

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"I'm curious how others on this Forum feel about the fact that a 3rd party can "DICTATE" how much you're going
to pay for a card that you are interested in"

You must purchase graded cards differntly than I do, because nobody dictates how much I'm going to pay for a card but me.

Yes, your card is overgraded, but that happens sometimes. Similarly, many of us get to take advantage of those awesome-looking cards that have a "2" or a "3" on the label despite having gorgeous fronts, but are downgraded due to minor back damage. We don't complain much about those, though.

I think, Ted, that if that card was naked and you paid the same amount that you paid for it in the holder - entirely possible ,due to the scarcity of the card - you'd have nothing to complain about. You'd be thrilled to own a card you've been searching for, a little bummed about the price, but happy to have ended a two-year search. But since the card is encased in plastic, there's someone you can blame, other than yourself, for what you paid for the card. And that always feels good.

However, when you sell the card a few years from now, and your eyes widen just a bit when you see the selling price, remember this thread.

Personally I think it's a pretty cool card. And while it's overgraded for sure, I know that when I find a card I've been searching for, I'm not going to let a little thing like a number on a flip keep me from owning it. So given all that, I think you got it for a great price. Enjoy the card and don't worry about the grade!

-Al

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Card prices are set by what the buyer is willing to pay, not the grading company.

Frank

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I've bought an awful lot of cards from ebay these past 8 years, and everything being the same (type, player,
condition, etc.)....invariably, the Naked card will be 33 - 50% cheaper than the Graded card. Of course,
you're risking that the Naked card might have been tampered with, but you try to minimize that by buying
from sellers you know. Yes, I am thrilled that I finally acquired this Evers....but, I don't "feel good"
by having someone to blame (as you stated).

Now, I have not stated how much I paid for this Evers card, so how do you know what it cost me ?

And, what makes you think I bought it for resale ?

Actually, I intend to crack it open and insert it into its appropriate slot in a 15-pocket plastic sheet
in my Sovereign set album.

When you put together a 400+ (or 500+) card set, the savings on every card adds up by the time you
complete it. And, that's why I am complaining about the un-merited cost of this particular card.
Set collectors are having to pay higher prices to acquire Stars, nowadays, because most of them
are being Graded. Even beat-up Stars are being Graded and that I don't understand. Can you explain
why anyone would get a beat-up T206 Lajoie (for example)
graded in a PSA 1 plastic ?
Is there really a worry that such a card was tampered with....that's really absurd if you stop to think
about it ?

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I agree, but I've learned that there are inherent absurdities built into the whole grading system. Much of it is good, and some of it defies comprehension. You take the good with the bad. And the Lajoie in the PSA 1 holder may actually get more money than if it were sold raw.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I would have expected to receive a PSA 4 on that one. PSA in my experience does not put an O/C qualifier on cards that are lower than PSA 6. However, for PSA 5 and lower cards, some graders knock down the card one grade for being O/C while others ignore centering altogether. I think it is an inconsistency within the PSA grading system that they have not resolved. This card seems to have been graded by a grader who does not account for centering for PSA 5 and lower cards.

Edited to add that it is my view that PSA has actually become a nominally TOUGHER grader (not easier as some would suggest) in recent years. Of course this is a gross generalization and exceptions are rampant. But your Evers is in one of the older (at least pre-2004) PSA holders.

Scot

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Posted By: Ed Hans

A 3 1/2 with the centering. The grading companies will always be plagued with the gross inconsistencies that we see every day. A nice pickup all the same.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Ted:

I don't know you at all, but I don't think you bought the card for resale. However, if I'm not mistaken, haven't you completed and sold multiple T206 sets? If I'm mistaking you for someone else on the board, I apologize, but if I'm not, well, I figure anyone who's managed to build a T206 set, sell it off, and build another one, won't have any qualms about selling off a Sovereign 460 Evers. So I figure eventually you'll sell it.

As far as what you paid for the card, it frankly doesn't matter. You've been searching for it for two years. You own it now. Obviously you're not thrilled with the price, but it wasn't enough to keep you from buying it so it couldn't have been THAT ridiculous. Therefore, I think you got it for a great price. Congratulations. Enjoy the card. It might not be a 5, but it's still really nice-looking to me.

As for why someone would buy a PSA 1 Lajoie in a holder, well, I'd imagine there are lots of reasons. But if I were building a graded set of T206s in low grades, I'd consider buying one already in the holder to avoid having to pay grading fees on a raw one.

I'm building a low-grade T205 set in SGC holders. I've bought SGC 10 cards on purpose.

Actually the other day I bought a T206 McGraw in a low-grade Beckett holder. I'm slowly doing T206 HOFers, and I like different backs, and this one had a Sovereign, so I bought it. It graded a 1.5. I was buying the card, though, it just happens to be encased in plastic. Eventually I'll crack it out and put it in an SGC holder with the rest of my HOFers.

-Al

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Oh, another point - LOTS of times I see a raw card sell for more than it's graded counterpart. The graded one, say it's an SGC 40. You can look and see what other SGC 40s have sold for, see the range, and decide where in that range you think this particular SGC 40 belongs. Maybe it's a nice 40, maybe it's a weak 40, and you set your price accordingly.

But the raw card, you can't really tell. Is it EX? EX-MT? VG-EX? Not sure. Card looks like it could be nice. Corners look good. Surface looks nice. Doesn't look like there's any creases. OK, I'll buy it for what an EX condition card would cost, and hope for the EX-MT grade. The card arrives, I send it in for grading...SGC 40. Oops. Scan didn't pick up the scratch on the back, the surface wrinkle, or the slightly clipped corner.

-Al

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Perhaps you are referring to me....I sold my 1st T206 set (521 cards) about 10 years ago.

Then I started a 2nd set which I called it complete with 520 cards (no Magie in this set).
But, I didn't sell this set. I broke it up to start a 3rd set which comprises of all PIEDMONT
backs. This set I still have and I will not sell it, as it is sort of a "landmark" set. All 518
cards are un-graded and they are in Ex condition. My Grandson, Ron, will inherit this set.

I am now approaching completion of a 4th set of T206's, of which all have SOVEREIGN backs.
When completed, the 404 cards in this set are un-graded and their condition ranges from Good
to ExMt. Grandson Ron will get this set, too.

One final word regarding this "so-graded PSA" Evers card....Barry, Jeff, Scot, George, Ed, and
Bill (emailed me) all agree with me that it is no better than VgEx.

So, if it was an un-graded card that anyone of these six guys was offering me....we would be
in agreement and settle at a reasonable price. You see Al, this is the way 1000's of BB card
deals were transacted for decades prior to the recent BB card "grading mania". We did not re-
quire a "judge or jury" to tell us what grade our precious little pieces of cardboard merited.

TED Z

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted, it sounds like you fell for the trap of looking at the number on the PSA label and not looking at the card. Sorry to hear that. I've been there before..many times...and I probably will fall for it a couple times more. Heck, just this past week, I fell for the trap by blindly buying three T206 cards graded SGC 50 that had paper loss on the front! I'm going to try to do better for myself in the future...hopefully you do too.


editing some grammar and spelling (not that it is good right now, but at least it is a little bit better)

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I have been buying low grade T cards either in slabs or raw for the grand total of two months now off eBay. I primarily go after Brooklyn players but also collect different backs so I have a somewhat mixed collection of Superbas and other cards, probably averaging PSA 2 or 3, except I bust everything out and put the cards into 15 pocket sheets. I find the comfort level a bit higher when buying slabbed cards and I think the rise of slabbing has a lot to do with precisely that-buying cards off the web is a crapshoot. That's a pretty obvious statement but if you can't hold the card in your hand and examine it, then how do you buy something off the internet? You either trust the seller or the grading company; there is no alternative.

By referencing a combination of completed eBay auctions and vintagecardprices.com (I have nothing to do with that site if it's not obvious, other than being a satisified customer) I've been able to avoid overbidding for the most part. T and E cards certainly are experiencing a price spike right now, but so are 60's Topps and and some other sets, so there is a temptation to bid high on old cardboard from many eras. The thirst for certain cards is presently intense among collectors. Some of it may be set registry mania but I think a lot of it is just good old supply and demand.

Many things we used to go out and experience are now available in digital form. But there is still something tactile and satisfying about holding a card (or something else) as opposed to having a scan or printout of it. A lot of collectibles are going up right now beacuse of this I think. If you want to see prices that are really nuts, try vintage guitars-the ultimate tactile collectible. Again, it is supply and demand and true vintage items are pursued with vigor in that realm as well. I seem to be losing my point (thanks to some good Cotes de Rhone and long day) but I think it had something to do with lower-grade slabs having their place in the hobby so long as you know what you want to pay or bid for something.

Ted, personally I am in awe of the way you are collecting T206. I'll probably end up going after the complete set (minus the big 6 to 8) as well since all signs seem to be pointing to it and I'm sure I will overspend on some cards. I will say this though; I have never regretted spending a bit too much for a card I want but always have regretted not bidding more for one that got away, slabbed or not. You seem a little disappointed in your Evers transaction but you do have possesion of a desirable card. It may not feel like it, but congratulations are in order!

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Posted By: Joann

Maybe I misread this. Ted, I don't mean to speak for you and please ring in if I misstate anything here.

I don't think Ted bought the card for the grade. He bought it because he needed the card, and then found that becuase it was misgraded he paid more than he should have.

I also didn't take his posts to mean that the grade set his price, in that he couldn't set his price on his own - the "nobody should set your price but you - nobody sets my price but me" argument.

I took it that he wanted this card and needed this card. He would have bought it raw, would have preferred to buy it raw, and in that case would have paid a fair price based on condition.

But because it was graded he only had two choices: either pay the price that is set by people that DO buy the slab, not the card - ie, the price that other buyers will pay for the PSA 5 slab - or else not get the card at all.

Not good choices, and I understand the frustration there. Sure he can say no one but me determines my price. But the fact of the matter is that there are buyers who will pay $XXX for a PSA 5 HOF'er. Those buyers set the price for that card, whether Ted likes it or not. If he doesn't like it then he can't get a card he needs.

I feel the same way sometimes. I couldn't care less about slabs one way or another. But as more and more cards get slabbed and that increasingly becomes the only option, I am increasingly forced to pay a price that is set by people that buy the grade, not the card.

So as much as we like to say buy the card, not the slab, as long as there are many others that WILL buy the slab we will no longer have those two choices.

Our new choice may become: Buy the slab or don't buy anything.

So if there's a card you really want or need, and most or all are slabbed, you have to suck it up and pay the slab price. Ouch once. Then to find out the slab was wrong - double ouch.

I agree with Ted. I don't really object to grading, but as more and more cards become unavailable raw, I do kind of resent having to pay prices that are set by people that want to pay for a grade and not the card - despite all of our protestations to the contrary.

Joann

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted's Sovereign 460 PSA 5 went for $410
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230097389224

The previous PSA 5 with a Sweet Caporal back went for $391
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150093588667

The PSA 5 with a Sweet Caporal back looks MUCH better than Ted's Sovereign 460. But what is the expected premium for the Sovereign 460 back? Ted says it is really tough to find. Let's assume the expected premium, given the same exact condition is $150. If that's the case, then Ted saved $130 from a true PSA 5 card...hey, maybe that is the price that a PSA 4 would go for. So it is very possible that Ted did not overpay, and that the underbidders were not bidding on the label...but in fact, he got a fair price for the card...a PSA 4 price for a card in a PSA 5 holder.

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Posted By: quan

i'd need better scans to determine the "blackness" on the bottom right corner wear. i know with my old scanner half of my EX cards look VG because it doesn't pick up corners very well. even if ted's card has that rounding corner i've seen similar cards in both sgc/psa holders...

edit to add scot i tend to agree with most of your thoughts on the board but i'd have to say PSA's grading has gotten lax over the years. i literally cringe when looking at some 4s/5s recently graded by PSA.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOANN

You perfectly described the dilemna that we Type, or Set collectors face on Ebay (or at Shows).
We are competing with buyers who aren't always interested in the card, but the # on the label.
And, those of us strictly interested in the card will have to resign to pay more than we want......
or pass....which is tough to do at times.

KING

I don't quite agree with your take, simply because the card, as it turns out, is less than Ex (PSA 5).
And, my opinion on the Grade of this card was DITTOed by 6 other members....therefore, you can
not say I'm just being subjective about the grade of this card. Your links provide us a perfect "A - B"
comparison between the two PSA 5 Evers cards. Thanks for posting them.

And, I don't buy #'s on labels, I didn't mind the O/C on the Evers, I just happen to miss the flaw
in the lower right corner. I admit I should have been more observant.

In the real "un-plasticized world" this card would have sold in the range of $200 - 300, at best.
And, I wouldn't have any qualms about paying that amount.

TED Z

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"In the real "un-plasticized world" this card would have sold in the range of $200 - 300, at best.
And, I wouldn't have any qualms about paying that amount."

Ted, this is precisely the point I'm trying to make. You are implying that the plasticized world is bad. Yet YOU are the one who bought the card. Do you know that the underbidder is a cert buyer who was just looking for a PSA 5 HOFer? Of course not. You don't know that any more than I know why you paid $410 for the card. Perhaps the underbidder also thought the card should be a $200-300 card, and wanted to win it as badly as you so he put in a bid that was far higher than the card should sell for, just to be SURE he'd win it. And then you did the same thing. Perhaps the underbidder is, at this very minute, complaining about the cert buyer that paid $410 for a card that's not worth more than $200-300.

If you read my original post, I agree - the card is overgraded. You bought it anyway. You can blame the plastic all you want, but the bottom line is that YOU bought it. You didn't have to, but you did. In fact, you placed FOUR bids on the card, and each bid was for more money than you thought the card was worth. You say the card is worth $200-300, but your first bid was for $333.77, and you made that bid just one day after the auction listing began. Then, with bidding on the card at $344, you placed a bid of $355.55. Less than 15 minutes later you took the card up over $400. And then you finished up at $410.

It was not the cert buyers who drove the price of this card up so high. It was you. Had you not bid, either bidder 2 or bidder 8 would have won the card, and they would have been bidding to beat bidder 7's high bid of $344, not your high bid of $410.

-Al

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

AL's first post made the key point. If this was a raw card and the final price was the same, there would be no outcry. Was the underbidder a "slab" guy or a "sovereign back" guy? That's something we'll never know. So blaming this one on the big bad grading company has no foundation.

Frank

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Posted By: Noel Wrye

Agreed, card looks overgraded. Not sure i understand the purpose of the post though. You saw unaltered scans of both the front and back so im not quite sure where the disappointment is coming from. Al, I think your take is spot on. Ted, i think i understand your point of view but just dont get it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What it really boils down to is Ted needed the card badly for his set and it ended up costing him too much, and some of his disappointment is being blamed on the slab. I understand why his is frustrated, but hey, vintage cards are expensive. That's just a fact of life.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your comments.....

....."Then, with bidding on the card at $344, you placed a bid of $355.55. Less than 15 minutes later
you took the card up over $400. And then you finished up at $410."

OK, as I've said, repeatedly, I assumed that this card was graded properly as an Ex card. And, I was
excited that, finally, this "Super Print" (SS) surfaced with a Sovereign 460 back. It is probably the
toughest of the Six SS cards to find with this back. I now have 5 of these six SS cards with Sov 460
backs (an accomplishment, not easily achieved).

So, you are trying to get into my mind, to figure out my bidding pattern on this Evers card. It's not really
anyone's business; however, since you have made it public....I will tell you that I was closely following
the bidding and I knew there would be a "sniper", or two. Therefore, I kept increasing my bid, for fear
that I would lose this card in the final seconds.

My fear proved true, a new bidder did "snipe" at the very last second....but, my "hidden bid" exceeded
his snipe bid. My $355.55 and $401.77 bids were also "hidden bids" that were subsequently exceeded
by other bidders.

Incidently, I don't recall ever having seen a Net54 poster exposing another member's actual bidding #'s
on a particular ebay item. I realize that anyone can access this information; however, I don't appreciate
your posting of it....for whatever purposes you have.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that card is in the right holder.

I. Centering Issue

Centering on T206 cards does not impact grade much on 5's and lower, unless the name is cut off at the bottom, or there is an entire border missing. There is enough white on the side to stay in a 5 holder.

II. Corner Damage

If you wanted 4 sharp corners, you should have held out for a 6. That is the right amount of corner damage for a 5. But a black background behind the card can assist us hind-sight graders a bit more with respect to corner issues.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If that card is indicative of a PSA-5 T206, then PSA is continues to lower their grading standards as time goes by. Ten years ago, you would never have found a T206 in that condition sitting in a PSA-5 holder. And if I were selling that card raw, I would be listing it as VG/EX.
I've been collecting tobacco cards longer than I've been collecting coins, over 40 years.

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Posted By: barrysloate

SGC would have given it a 50, and been right on the money.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I personally think it is irrelevant what the grade is or should be. To me that would not be the point. I need the card. It's a tough card. I may never see it again. So (and I have no opinion one way or the other) I think I overpaid. I'm just happy to have the card.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...all you want, but how about some examples? In my opinion, the expectation is based on words, not an understanding for why a card should grade a 5. I am having a hard time explaining this thought, but basically, Ted has a defitional issue rather than a slab issue. His definition of EX is different from what PSA or SGC would call EX. So, when he buys a card raw, he can define the card how he likes. But when he buys a card that has been graded, the industry standard definition makes it harder for him to buy cards. Frankly, that is the whole point of using an industry standard that can be checked by a respected 3rd-party authenticator. Long gone are the days of dealers selling Walter Johnson portraits and calling them NrMT-MT to collectors who couldn't find the hairline crease, or spot of paper loss. I have yet to see a comprehensible argument made by a raw card collector about how to deal with the dealer who charges you $2,000 for that card which is worth $500. This is ESPECIALLY so in light of the internet. Instead of complaining about having to pay for a PSA 5 on ebay, keep in mind that without PSA, you would never have found that card on ebay. Period. There would be nowhere near the same market for T206 cards on the internet were it not for PSA. You may want to revert to a time when you and your buddies hung out at convention centers in the mid-70's or mid-80's and swapped cards without regard to value and exact condition. But I got pretty tired of driving home from a card show, having spent hundreds of dollars on a 1933 Goudey card that was described as EX, only to see the back crease in the car ride home. Thanks to PSA, those stories are much less prevalent.

Finally, I don't have any PSA cards, because again, I hate them. But here are some SGC 60's, with offcenter issues and corner damage, that I believe are quite accurately graded:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28334&usetid=1015

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28238&usetid=1015

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28434&usetid=1015

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28468&usetid=1015

Not off-center, but this is Ted's card, with worse corners, in my opinion, in an SGC 60 holder:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28516&usetid=1015

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The consensus on this Thread, and 2 emails that I have received, agree by a factor of 10 - 2,
that this card is no better than Vg-Ex.

George, between you and I we have about 70 years of collecting T-cards....we have seen a lot
of T206's in the course of our combined 70 years.

Thanks for your opinion.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that 10-2 would evaporate. And, I bet they would cross it to a 60.

You may have 70 years of collecting, but I hardly think that having put together an entire T206 set in SGC holders, with grades ranging from A to 80 over the past 10 years, qualifies me as some sort of newbie rookie in card grading.

If anything, your standards are dated and mine are current.

Finally, Ted, how do you explain that $2,000 card that is worth $500 issue I raised? Doesn't card grading mostly eliminate that practice -- especially on the internet?

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Posted By: George Dreher

The Evers from the registry that T206 Collector posted has better corners and decent centering and belongs in an SGC 60 holder. The only card I would have taken issue with is the Willett card and it is worse than the PSA-5 Evers....definitely VG/EX.

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Posted By: T206Collector

....plenty of examples of SGC 60 cards with corners as rounded as the Willetts. SGC is consistent in its grading of such cards as 60's, as long as there are no other issues.

Your definition or expectation of VG-EX is lower than the industry standard. And, by the way, in the ten years of collecting I did before I collected graded cards, those were EX in my book, too.

This is the Lefty Grove I bought in 1989 as a 16 year old kid -- I bought it believing it to be EX condition, even with the corner wear. Sure enough, SGC agreed with me 15 years later when they slabbed it:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=512&usetid=1127

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I see a bet in the making here.

Maybe we should get a pool together, and then have Ted cross it over to SGC, and see what it gets.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...If SGC puts it in a 50 holder, I'll shut up.

I'm not saying it's the most beautiful 60 I've ever seen; I'm just saying it would be consistent with how SGC has graded all the 60's I've ever seen if they too graded that Evers as a 60.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Ted, even though we feel it should have been graded a 4, you still have a 5 slab and that alone will dictate the higher value. You still made a wise investment.

T206 Collector, yes I think my standards are dated in comparison with the grading trends I have been seeing as time passes. The amount of raw vintage cards that can be graded is finite and we will see the number of submissions continue to decrease in coming years. This means that PSA and other companies will rarely see higher quality vintage submissions and the tendency will be to grade higher or grade altered cards in order to maintain profit, customer satisfaction and a sufficient level of future submissions.

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Posted By: George Dreher

I agree with the grade on the Grove. It is in better condition and better centered than the PSA-5 Evers

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Posted By: George Dreher

If SGC will grade that Willett card a 60, then I don't see any reason they wouldn't grade the Evers card a 60. I'm just saying that I think they are overgrading if they do. Also, I wouldn't advise Ted to ever take that Evers card out of its current slab, because it might never again achieve that grade, unless he sent it to PSA for a reholder.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[Ted, even though we feel it should have been graded a 4, you still have a 5 slab and that alone will dictate the higher value. You still made a wise investment.]

He will crack it out and then sell it as VG-EX, which while noble can hardly be qualified as a "wise investment."

[the tendency will be to grade higher or grade altered cards in order to maintain profit, customer satisfaction and a sufficient level of future submissions.]

I agree that the grading companies need to be monitored like a hawk. And, in 2, 5 or 10 years down the line, if it turns out that SGC is slipping in its standards, then I will promptly find the most reputable grading company available. When I learned of certain disreputable issues with PSA, I cracked the 40 PSA cards I had out and had them put into SGC holders. I'd do the same with SGC in a heart beat if there were corporate scandal or some such deal with them. And, it may very well be that we will have to rely on the years that certain cards were graded by certain companies. But as long as e-commerce is available for baseball cards, it will be necessary to have a reliable, consistent choice for 3rd-party authentication -- since in person viewings will be impossible.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[I agree with the grade on the Grove. It is in better condition and better centered than the PSA-5 Evers.]

Just to add quirks to quirkiness -- PSA didn't agree with either of us. They called it a PSA 4. I agree with you that they got it wrong. But I have heard from the Goudey collectors that they would not want their PSA 5's to have corners like this.

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Posted By: George Dreher

<But as long as e-commerce is available for baseball cards, it will be necessary to have a reliable, consistent choice for 3rd-party authentication -- since <in person viewings will be impossible.

Well said. The credibility is in the slab when dealing remotely.

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Posted By: George Dreher

So it was an SGC-60 that came out of a PSA-4 holder?
Yes, looks like it could easily be a PSA-5 to me. There are some tough calls to make huh?
I have a 1954 Mantle that has the same corners and centering, and it occupies a PSA-5 holder.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

I checked out your links and some I would say are Ex and others less than Ex.

But, more importantly, I really enjoy going to major shows. I only set-up at the Philly Shows
and do a lot of browsing around at each show. And, do some serious "person-to-person"
buying.
If I am going to spend big $$$$ on a "naked" card at a show, the dealer is not going to "jam"
his grade at me. I will deal only with dealers who I know I can have a "give and take" with.

I've operated this way for 30 years, now. I certainly won't risk buying an un-graded card via
mail that is very expensive. Some collectors go to a lot of shows to acquire cards for their
collection. And, there are some that only go to the National and acquire most of their cards
from ebay, or personal transactions via mail. Everyone, has their personal preferences in the
way they obtain cards for their collections.

Paul....I might just submit this card to SGC (for academic reasons, since as you know I don't
have graded cards in my collection). And, it will be interesting to see what grade SGC gives it ?


TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

[I certainly won't risk buying an un-graded card via mail that is very expensive.]

Given this statement and the prices and quantities of T206 cards on ebay, there is no question the value that 3rd party grading brings to the vintage baseball card equation.

[So it was an SGC-60 that came out of a PSA-4 holder?]

That's right. Just like this Cobb:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28409&usetid=1015

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Posted By: George Dreher

I've always loved that particular Cobb T206. I'm beginning to think PSA should have had an EX 4.5 grade. That is also a very tough call on the grading. Some cards are so close that they are in between grades.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the future for the grading services is that each will become more strict over time. Collectors will demand it, and it is what they will have to do to stay competitive.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but PSA seems to have finally gotten around to removing my 40 T206 cards from the PSA Set Registry. I had about 40 cards on there, but someone must have tipped them off to the fact that I don't own any PSA cards anymore. (Either PSA reads these boards or someone who obviously believes very deeply about the sanctity of the PSA Set Registry filed a complaint.) Though it would have been nice to get an e-mail from PSA to let me know that they were going to do that. I'm going to have to start a post about that....

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Posted By: George Dreher

Barry, since the supply of raw vintage cards is finite, doesn't this mean that the number of future submissions will decrease over time and so will the ability of grading companies to maintain a profit?