1952 topps martin

[skyhook]

how rare is a 1952 topps billy martin grey back?

[tedzan]

Since 1981, I have been working towards completing a 1952 Topps master set. I still need some of the mid-series gray cardboard cards.

Besides my Billy Martin shown here....I have had only one other Billy Martin in all these years.


TED Z

[skyhook]

thanks for the help. i am trying to decide on grading mine or selling it raw.

[campyfan39]

How much are you asking for it raw?

[Volod]

I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone's collecting focus and can understand the fascination with all the multifarious variations in this set, but it seems somewhat comical to me that what was probably the result of one of the Shorin brothers ordering the pressroom to just use an inferior cardstock to continue printing that number series until the regular white stock arrived from the supplier became a rare and valued "variation" half a century later. Again, don't mean to offend with this comment - it just strikes me as odd.

[ALR-bishop]

We variation/oddity card guys are a weird lot alright. I have never pursued these or the similar 54s, or the other 50s and 60s back stock color differences. But a true master 52 set collector would have to have them and I salute their dedication. The 52 gray back commons in decent condition have been going for $ 500 and more on ebay, so someone really wants them . And, the pursuit of those is not really different than me paying large amounts for the 58 Herrer, the 57 Bakep, the 53 Campos black star, the 59 Sullivan without a "." , or the 1980 yellows....all just print defects as opposed to real variations

[flkersn]

Even rarer is the gray back Martin with the white (ish) border on the front.

If the graybacks are the result of inferior stock, then there must have been at least two different inferior stocks--one resulting in gray borders on the front and one with white(ish).

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TED Z

This Topps mid-series (#131-190) printed on GRAY cardboard stock was not printed or issued in 1952. Subsequently, Topps apparently printed this series
of cards on the same cardboard stock that they printed their other cards (Rails & Sails, etc.).
Whatever the reason why Topps did this is unknown to me, other then I'm certain that these cards were not issued in 1952 with their regular issue of 407
BB cards....nor were they issued with Bubble Gum. Perhaps, some one else on this forum knows why....and, can clue us in.


TED Z

[ALR-bishop]

I certainly do not know the answer to their origins, but having put together the 52 and 54 sets with known variations ( including the 2 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson variations and the 3 Campos variations) ....other then the 2 "Canadian" subset issues ( I know they may not actually be Canadian in origin but are often referred to in that way), I know how tough it is to put those "sets" together and salute folks like Ted who are doing so.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by tedzan

This Topps mid-series (#131-190) printed on GRAY cardboard stock was not printed or issued in 1952. Subsequently, Topps apparently printed this series
of cards on the same cardboard stock that they printed their other cards (Rails & Sails, etc.).
Whatever the reason why Topps did this is unknown to me, other then I'm certain that these cards were not issued in 1952 with their regular issue of 407
BB cards....nor were they issued with Bubble Gum. Perhaps, some one else on this forum knows why....and, can clue us in.


TED Z

Thanks for the info, Ted. But I'm wondering, how is it known that the greys were issued later than 1952? Is it just the recollection of collectors who did not see tham in that year, but saw them at some later point?

[tedzan]

Several of us ole "dinosaurs" in the hobby, who collected 1952 Topps as kids in 1952, have compared notes over the years on all that is 1952 Topps.

Most of us have put together "master sets". I need a few more GRAY's to complete my set. Also, I should add that I have all of my 1952 Topps cards
from my youth.

Anyhow, everyone of us dinosaurs recall very well that none of these GRAY's were available in '52. There are enough of us that we represent various
regions of the country, so it can't be said that the GRAY's were limited to a specific regions in this country.

One of the well-known veteran collectors in the hobby, John Rumierz, has done some research and he says this series of 60 BB cards were issued with
products other than Topps gum. This is obvious, since there is no gloss on the front of these GRAY's (as is found on the regular 1952 Topps BB cards).
John R. thinks that the GRAY's were issued circa 1953-54.


TED Z

[campyfan39]

^ very interesting theory!
Also, wow a master set of 52's has to be my dream! Hopefully one day I can find a lot reasonable enough to get started. For me it is "the monster"

[flkersn]

And why do some gray backs have white borders on the front?

[tedzan]

All the 52T mid-series (#131-190) rare gray-back cards I have seen are also grayish on their fronts. And, they lack the gloss found on all the fronts of the regular 52T
BB cards.

Originally Posted by tedzan

TED Z

You have to show us a scan of what cards you are referring to. Because I have never seen rare mid-series gray-backs with bright white fronts.


TED Z

[skyhook]

any idea of the value of a ex-mt martin gray back?

[Volod]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Several of us ole "dinosaurs" in the hobby, who collected 1952 Topps as kids in 1952, have compared notes over the years on all that is 1952 Topps.
Most of us have put together "master sets". I need a few more GRAY's to complete my set. Also, I should add that I have all of my 1952 Topps cards from my youth.
Anyhow, everyone of us dinosaurs recall very well that none of these GRAY's were available in '52. There are enough of us that we represent various regions of the country, so it can't be said that the GRAY's were limited to a specific regions in this country.
One of the well-known veteran collectors in the hobby, John Rumierz, has done some research and he says this series of 60 BB cards were issued with products other than Topps gum. This is obvious, since there is no gloss on the front of these GRAY's (as is found on the regular 1952 Topps BB cards). John R. thinks that the GRAY's were issued circa 1953-54.
TED Z

Ted - Thanks once again for dispensing hobby history enlightenment. I also admit to dinosaur status, but I'm closer to a pteranodon than T-Rex because I never could find Topps cards in 1952. Found plenty of Bowman and even '51 Redbacks and All Stars, but for some reason the 1952 set seemed to be sparsely distributed in my small town. Maybe the Mom/Pop's hid them on the back shelves when they saw me coming in with a jar of pennies.

[tedzan]

Steve

Thanks for your kind words. I'm curious, where did you live in 1952 that you did not have 52T cards at your neighborhood stores ?

I know that certain series of 1952 Topps (52T) cards were not available in certain areas of the country; however, the 52T's were very popular.
Topps went back and repeated press runs of the 1st & 2nd series to satisfy the demand.

The RED backs of the 1st series (cards #1-80) are the result of these repeated press runs. In the North Jersey and greater New York city area
the 1st series cards were the BLACK backs (available in the Spring of '52).


TED Z

[Volod]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve

Thanks for your kind words. I'm curious, where did you live in 1952 that you did not have 52T cards at your neighborhood stores ?

I know that certain series of 1952 Topps (52T) cards were not available in certain areas of the country; however, the 52T's were very popular.
Topps went back and repeated press runs of the 1st & 2nd series to satisfy the demand.

The RED backs of the 1st series (cards #1-80) are the result of these repeated press runs. In the North Jersey and greater New York city area
the 1st series cards were the BLACK backs (available in the Spring of '52).

TED Z

Sorry, the Redbacks I referred to were the 1951 cards, not the '52's. I'm only going by the few memory cells I have left from that summer 60 years ago. As an 8-year-old in Auburn NY - small city west of Syracuse - most stores I went in had the 1952 Bowmans, and even some leftover 1951 Topps sets, but I don't recall ever finding the 1952 Topps set. I remember seeing the cards in another kid's collection, but he informed me he had obtained them on a trip to NYC, so I regarded them with great awe, as I assumed they were not available upstate. Now, however, I imagine the '52's might have been there somewhere if I had only known where to look - still, perhaps not very heavy distribution.

[ALR-bishop]

I have a set of 51 Red Backs in two panel form in an unopened "rack" pack with a game board and at least 5, 51 Current or Connie Mack All Stars...red backgrounds. The panels unfortunately are bound with rubber bands, which due to position would have little impact on the red backs but likely have had an impact on the All Star cards. Dave Hornish has a picture of such a pack, it might be mine, on his web site

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I certainly do not know the answer to their origins, but having put together the 52 and 54 sets with known variations ( including the 2 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson variations and the 3 Campos variations) ....other then the 2 "Canadian" subset issues ( I know they may not actually be Canadian in origin but are often referred to in that way), I know how tough it is to put those "sets" together and salute folks like Ted who are doing so.

Al,

Wow quite an accomplishment. Nice....

Z Wheat

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve

Thanks for your kind words. I'm curious, where did you live in 1952 that you did not have 52T cards at your neighborhood stores ?

I know that certain series of 1952 Topps (52T) cards were not available in certain areas of the country; however, the 52T's were very popular.
Topps went back and repeated press runs of the 1st & 2nd series to satisfy the demand.

The RED backs of the 1st series (cards #1-80) are the result of these repeated press runs. In the North Jersey and greater New York city area
the 1st series cards were the BLACK backs (available in the Spring of '52).


TED Z

Ted,

Are any of your sources that remembered buying 52 Topps when they were young from Canada? Why do you think they were issued at the same time as the Rails set?

Just curious. Thanks.

Zach Wheat

[tedzan]

Zach

None the guys who shared their experience collecting 52T cards in 1952 were from Canada. I have heard of rumors that the 52T mid-series gray-backs
originated from Canada. I have not seen any evidence of this.

I have also heard that 54T - 1st series (#1-50) cards that have gray-backs originated from Canada. I think this fact has been supported by at least 2
Canadian finds of 54T cards. I have a 54T Eddie Lopat gray-back as a type card.

Finally, one of the guys, who recalls getting 52T gray-backs as a kid, remembers buying Rails & Sails packs that included one (or two) 52T gray-backs.
Now, the Rails & Sails cards were issued in 1955, and that suggests, if this was so, it may have been an anomaly.


TED Z

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Finally, one of the guys, who recalls getting 52T gray-backs as a kid, remembers buying Rails & Sails packs that included one (or two) 52T gray-backs.

Now, the Rails & Sails cards were issued in 1955, and that suggests, if this was so, it may have been an anomaly.


TED Z

This makes sense in a way-if Topps was stuffing packs to make them appear fatter than Bowman's as they tried to finish that firm off, I could see it happening in '55 with leftover 52's. Topps cardboard stock would vary from run to run so maybe a last run of 3rd series '52 cards was warehoused. I'll post over of the Vintage NS board and ask around a little and see if any of the vets over there have found the 52's when opening R&S packs.

[tedzan]

These elusive 52T gray-backs have been a mystery back 1977 when I got back into this hobby and they still are a mystery.

It was nice back in 1977 in that they were more available. As the years since have gone by, they have become very scarce.

And, I do not like the $$ that they are going for now. I'm almost tempted to give up on completing this run of 60 cards, and
sell the ones I have.

TED Z

[ALR-bishop]

At the prices they have been going for Ted, that's understandable on both counts. Like you on the 54s I just wanted an example for my 52 set and the prices on even off condition grays has been crazy. There must be several others trying to complete that subset.

I thought I was being crazy in getting the Mantle, Robinson and Thompson "variations" but you have to be tenacious and have cash to burn to pursue all the grays

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

At the prices they have been going for Ted, that's understandable on both counts. Like you on the 54s I just wanted an example for my 52 set and the prices on even off condition grays has been crazy. There must be several others trying to complete that subset.

I thought I was being crazy in getting the Mantle, Robinson and Thompson "variations" but you have to be tenacious and have cash to burn to pursue all the grays

Al

If you are an ardent 1952 Topps (52T) collector, then it's not "crazy" about getting the 2nd cards of these 3 double-printed Hi #s (Mantle, JRobinson & Thomson).
Having these 6 cards, puts you on an easier course of putting together a master set of 52T's.

Ridiculously high $$ prices for 52T grays, notwithstanding, I am holding onto my cards in hopes of completing this run of 60 cards. Especially, since I acquired most
of them years ago for very reasonable prices.


TED Z