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Old 05-18-2017, 06:42 PM
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h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
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Default W600 Sporting Life Cabinets - different mount types

I was looking at past W600 Sporting Life threads and was trying to find out more information about the different mounts. Here's a good thread to get you up to speed if you aren't familiar with this early 20th century issue:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=w600&page=3

Has anyone already gone through the lists of checklisted W600's and determined the dates that the four (five if you include the green mount Waddell) different mount types would/could have been issued?

This is the most comprehensive checklist I've seen to date, but perhaps there are experts out there who have additional information that could help.

http://www.oldcardboard.com/w/w600/w600list.asp

I know, for example, that Sam Crawford has both a Type 3 and Type 4 mount available for his "Uniform" version, despite what is in the checklist above.

***********************************************

I would speculate that the photos would have been kept by Sporting Life and only mounted to the Cabinets once an order came in. The different cabinet styles could then, theoretically, be used to determine the date the cabinet was issued/produced. So, using David (Davy) Jones example, someone ordered his card in say, 1908, and got the Davy Jones (Chicago) photo mounted to a Type 4 cabinet. While the photo is certainly from 1904 (since he changed teams in 1906), the cabinet itself may have been from a later date as Sporting Life got rid of stock.

I'm asking because this is an important distinction for someone with a HOF "rookie" card passion (err...disease).

***********************************************
Using this logic, it's clear that all the type 1 cabinets were issued in 1902.

The type 2's were likely issued in 1903, even though some players may have had their photos available for sale in 1902 (like Beckley). Conceivably, there could then be a Jake Beckley with both a Type 1 and Type 2 mount, although only a Type 2 has been discovered to date. This is the case with Fred Clarke where he has been found on both a Type 1 and Type 2 mount for the same image (in suit).

The type 3's would have been issued from 1904-YYYY.

And the type 4's would have been issued from (YYYY)-1912/13.

The question is, can we pinpoint the YYYY? This would help me determine if a particular W600 falls into the "rookie" category on my checklists. There are a few players who had team changes in the 1904-1908 timeframe that could help pinpoint the date that type 4 mounts first started making their way into circulation, or rather, when type 3's were no longer used by Sporting Life.

If a type 3 existed of:

> Edward Abbaticchio (in Pittsburg uniform), we could deduce that YYYY = 1907
> Clarence Beaumont (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Charles Brown (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Walter Clarkson (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Otis Clymer (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Andrew Coakley (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1907
> W.M. Congalton (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> T.W. Corcoran (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1907
> James Delahanty (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1907
> James Delahanty (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1907
> William Dineen (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1907
> William Duggleby (in Pittsburg uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Patrick Flaherty (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Charles Fraser (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Robert Ganley (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1907
> John Ganzell (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Charles Hickman (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1907
> George Howard (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Fred Jacklitsch (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Harry Jacobson (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Hugh Jennings (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Michael Kahoe (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Michael Kahoe (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Frank Kitson (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1907
> John Knight (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Michael Lynch (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1907
> James McGuire (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Samuel Mertes (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Earl Moores (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1907
> George Nill (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Peter O'Brien (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Peter O'Brien (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Claude Ritchey (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Claude Rossman (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = 1907
> Joseph Yeager (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1907

> James Barrett (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John C. Barry (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> David Brain (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Herbert Briggs (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> James Burke (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Charles Carr (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> James Casey (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Lafayette Cross (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> James Delahanty (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Frank Donahue (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Patrick Donovan (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Patrick Dougherty (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Charles Fraser (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Harry Gessler (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> William Hallman (in Pittsburg uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Edward Hanlon (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Charles Harper (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Daniel Hoffman (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> George Howard (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Harry Jacobson (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> David Jones (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Frank Kitson (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> William Maloney (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> William Marshal (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John McCarthy (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John McCloskey (in St. Louis inform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Samuel Mertes (in St. Louis inform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Charles McFarland (in Pittsburg uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John J. O'Neil (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Michael J. O'Neil (in Brooklyn uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Frank Pfeiffer (in Boston uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Oliver Pickering (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Frank Roth (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> J. Bentley Seymour (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> W.P. Shannon (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> James Sheckard (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Alexander Smith (in New York uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Homer Smoot (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> William Sudhoff (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John Townsend (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> John Warner (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Jacob Weimer (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Robert Wicker (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Otto Williams (in Washington uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Vic Willis (in Pittsburg uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907
> Howard Wilson (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = 1906 or 1907

> John Anderson (in Washington uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> John C. Barry (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> David Brain (in Pittsburgh uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> William Bransfield (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Jesse Burkett (in Boston uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> William Clark (in New York uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Richard Cooley (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Harry Dolan (in Boston uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Thomas Doran (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Charles Fraser (in Boston uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Frank Hahn (in New York uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Charles Hickman (in Washington uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Otto Jordan (in Cleveland uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Michael Kahoe (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Otto Krueger (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Henry Peitz (in Pittsburg uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Edward Phelps (in Cincinnati uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Charles Pittinger (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Frank Roth (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> James Sebring (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> J.B. Stanley (in Washington uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Harry Steinfeldt (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Samuel Strang (in New York uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Ernest Vinson (in Chicago uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> John Warner (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> John Warner (in Detroit uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Arthur Weaver (in St. Louis uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Otto Williams (in Philadelphia uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Harry Wolverton (in Boston uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907
> Joseph Yeager (in New York uniform), YYYY = b/w 1905-1907

Given that Cobb is only known with a Type 4 mount and his card was issued starting in 1907, I would guess that YYYY is probably not after 1908. The same holds for Eddie Collins, although his popularity would have paled in comparison to Cobb. I suppose if there are any other players who were issued in 1907 or 1908 with a type 3 mount, this would help pinpoint the date that these mounts stopped being used.

I hope some great members here can help find examples of Type 3 mounts that can help me pinpoint the date of issuance for each cabinet type.
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2017, 07:10 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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The images are not mounted on the cabinet, they are printed on it. Based on Sporting Life advertising over the years they were all produced prior to placing the ads in the paper each week, as towards the end they offered "still available", meaning they had these left over, the list got smaller over time.

To pinpoint the date that any of them were actually issued/ordered would be guesswork at best. The only hard timeline data is the availability via weekly offers in the Sporting Life paper.

But what if no one ordered a player until two years after he came into the league, is that his Rookie? It's an argument for the rookie collectors I guess, but normally proffered by the sellers as THE one!

So short story, the time line of availability is hard and set, yet there is no way to know exactly what mount they may have been issued on, as there may have well been new old stock to use up. Team changes might have also been an issue on the mounts as they updated their offering.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:32 PM
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h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
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Thanks. Do you agree though that all signs point to the Cabinet mounts (and therefore photos on the mounts) being produced in certain time-frames? To me, it is obvious that there will never be a type 1 or type 2 Cobb. Can you not do the same time-stamping with the type 3s and 4s? If a type 3 were to emerge with a player like Cobb, I would argue that this particular Cabinet pre-dates his Type 4 example. I don't care if it wasn't delivered to Joe Schmoe until 1912, the card was likely produced before the type 4.

I'm just trying to pinpoint some dates with FACTS.

Your argument that the Cabinets were overproduced and sometimes not sold until years later actually lends support to my assertion. But thank you for educating me on them being printed on the cabinets vs. mounted. I think that helps my case. Perhaps there were a handful of extra old type stock, but I'd guess the company would have exhausted the old type and moved onto the new stock for newer players and/or team changes.

I still find it very odd that the Davy Jones Cabinet from his time with Chicago (1904-1905) has a type 4 mount, unless 1905 is when the type 4s started being used (almost exclusively) by Sporting Life. Again, if someone can show me an example of a type 3 mount for player/team combo that was offered by Sporting Life starting in the 1906-1907 time-frame, I'd be very interested.
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HOF Rookie Collection (Ideal): 225/317 (71.0%)
Helmar Stamps: 160/180 (88.9%)

God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of things (including completing these two sets). Right now, I'm so far behind I will never die!

Last edited by h2oya311; 05-18-2017 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:50 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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I think it's generally agreed that all of the type 4's are post 1907. The images may date from several years before, the mount itself and the team will more accurately pinpoint the date.

I guess its time to go thru and list the mounts on my cabinets so that I might provide further data.

I also feel I should add that most W600 collectors have little concern which mount a player is on, this seems to be pushed more recently by a couple of auction houses to provide more fodder for the write-up and create a perceived rarity.

Last edited by sb1; 05-18-2017 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:29 PM
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Baseball Rarities Baseball Rarities is offline
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Type 1: 1902
Type 2: end of 1902 through middle of 1903
Type 3: middle of 1903 through end of 1903, maybe beginning of 1904
Type 4: 1904 until the end

I can go into more detail if anyone has a specific question.

Just for reference, here is a Type 4 Wagner that just sold in Heritage. It is dated on the back May 23, 1906, so I assume that was when the person received the cabinet.
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File Type: jpg Wagner a.jpg (61.7 KB, 142 views)
File Type: jpg Wagner b.jpg (37.9 KB, 142 views)
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:14 AM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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And.....one of the two most knowledgeable persons of W600's has spoken. Kevin has spent a great deal of time researching the offerings and dates of W600's directly from the SL issues.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:38 AM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
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Default W600 Cabinets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities View Post
Type 1: 1902
Type 2: end of 1902 through middle of 1903
Type 3: middle of 1903 through end of 1903, maybe beginning of 1904
Type 4: 1904 until the end

I can go into more detail if anyone has a specific question.

Just for reference, here is a Type 4 Wagner that just sold in Heritage. It is dated on the back May 23, 1906, so I assume that was when the person received the cabinet.
Hi Kevin....Joe T. Do you know the release date for the Type 2 Street Clorhes Wagner? Curious to know if it was issued before the end of 1902 or in 1903. Thx Kevin!
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
Hi Kevin....Joe T. Do you know the release date for the Type 2 Street Clorhes Wagner? Curious to know if it was issued before the end of 1902 or in 1903. Thx Kevin!
Hey Joe - You would have to assume that the type 2s of Wagner were produced at the same time as all of the other original type 2s, which was in November of 1902. AFAIK, there is no way to know when the SL ran out of type 1 Wagners and began shipping the type 2s.

Other type 2 players, such as Mathewson, can be more definitively dated. Mathewson was not offered by the SL until January 31, 1903, so his card obviously would not date from 1902.

The way that I was able to date the four different mounts was by studying when each of the HOFers was first offered by the SL in their newspaper and then comparing that with what the mounts were known for the cabinets that exist of that player. For example, Brown was first offered in their October 1, 1904 issues. AFAIK, Brown is only known with a type 4 mount. On the other hand, Bresnahan and Burkett was first offered in their September 26, 1903 issue and are both known with type 3 mounts.

I went through and did the same thing with all 37 HOFers that appear in the set and created a matrix based on when they were first offered and what mounts are known to exist. In addition, I have done the same with lots of "common" players as well. So far, I have not found a single card that falls outside of the date range that I originally posted.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities View Post
Type 1: 1902
Type 2: end of 1902 through middle of 1903
Type 3: middle of 1903 through end of 1903, maybe beginning of 1904
Type 4: 1904 until the end
Kevin - thank you, as always! I'm glad you have already gone through this exercise as it will undoubtedly save me quite a bit of time. Again, I listed some commons up above that could help. Instead of only looking at when 4's started coming into play (since they conceivably could have been issued well after 1904, even if it was a HOF player), I was trying to take the approach of when the last type 3 might have come into circulation. The commons with team changes or the first issue of a player could help. Find the last 3 produced, and you have a more definitive date.

Given the dates you provided, my type 3 Tinker would place it right in the 1903-04 time-frame, making it his official "rookie" card (ignoring team photos)! Woo-hoo! Most W600 Tinkers I've seen have the type 4 cabinet, and, as such, would be less desirable to me (although not a concern to most W600 collectors).

Thanks for everyone's help so far. Again, if anyone has a type 3 mount for a player listed in the original post, please contribute as this would help nail down the date that type 3's stopped being used.

My Tinker w/ Type 3 Mount:
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Last edited by h2oya311; 05-19-2017 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:38 AM
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The one on the left is the earliest mount Cy Young is on which is a type 1 (thanks Kevin). The one on the right is Cy on a type 4 mount.
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