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  #1  
Old 11-12-2016, 10:12 PM
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Default T205 production time

So I was reading an old Lew Lipset book today and in the 1911 T202 section he states that there are only two players (Joe Wood and Walt Blair) who are in the T202 set but not T205. He then goes on to say that his theory for this is that although Wood and Blair started their careers in 1907-08, the photographs for the T205 set had already been taken by then. This would imply that the T205 set took at least 4-5 years to produce. However, there are several players, including Zack Wheat, who debuted after Wood and Blair but somehow made it into the T205 set, so it appears his logic doesn't hold up. Does anyone have any more info on this? I find it hard to believe that they'd spend that long on a set that was essentially going to be given away for free, but I guess I wouldn't be shocked if it took that long to do all of that art work and design.....however, it still wouldn't explain how players who debuted in 1909-10 made it into the set but two guys from 1907-08 didn't.
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Last edited by conor912; 11-12-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2016, 11:17 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T205 timeline

Early in 1911, American Lithographic (ALC) started producing their new gold-bordered series of cards with the very colorful and ornate Military Men (T80) cards
being one of their first. This is known from an ALC ledger (dated Feb 1911). Followed by various gold-bordered Tobacco cards, of which the T205 BB card series
is included during 1911. And, the T205 series is concluded with the production of the Minor League cards (circa late 1911 - early 1912).

T80....Spring of 1911






T205....late 1911 - early 1912

.


.




TED Z
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2016, 06:24 AM
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yes wood & blair are not in t205 but in the t202. But There are many players from this time not in the T205 set, stars even

Would of been sweet to see a joe jackson or honus wagner glod border. Why werent they amongst many others included? Was there supposed tonbe another batch printed? Probably. But We probably will never know, 100%, the biggest mysyery, each card was printed saying 400 designs.... where are they? Only 200 plus accounted for
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Last edited by EvilKing00; 11-13-2016 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:06 AM
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Though a Shoeless Joe would have sweet, indeed, I'm actually glad a lot of sets from that time are missing a major star or two. As a set collector it makes completion more financially viable

I was aware that there were many players missing, I just thought it was curious that he wrote that the reason Wood and Blair were missing was because the photos had already been taken by 1907....a good 4 years before the set was released. The book I saw it in is a good 30 years old, so new info may have surfaced since then proving this theory wrong...
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Last edited by conor912; 11-13-2016 at 09:07 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2016, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
Though a Shoeless Joe would have sweet, indeed, I'm actually glad a lot of sets from that time are missing a major star or two. As a set collector it makes completion more financially viable

I was aware that there were many players missing, I just thought it was curious that he wrote that the reason Wood and Blair were missing was because the photos had already been taken by 1907....a good 4 years before the set was released. The book I saw it in is a good 30 years old, so new info may have surfaced since then proving this theory wrong...
I don't have the book in front of me, but I assume he meant the pictures used were from pre-1907, not that they specifically took pictures for the T205 cards and used them. Some of the T206 pictures used were at least six years old. They didn't take pictures for the sets, they used available pictures at the time.

The simple solution might be that the T205 set was supposed to be bigger, and if you look on some of the backs, they say "400 subjects", which is a lot more than they actually made. Could be that they didn't get around to the other two players.
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Last edited by z28jd; 11-13-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2016, 11:17 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hey guys,

Let's look at the bigger picture in 1911......1911 was a very busy year at American Lithographic, for they produced
a heck of a lot of pretty looking cardboard with their Baseball and non-Sports sets. For example............


T80 Military Series (Spring 1911)....50 cards




T205 BB....208 cards

.
.




T201 MECCA BB....50 cards






Birds T42 (50 cards) and T43 (30 cards)




T77 Lighthouse cards and T205 Minor Leaguers (circa 1911 > 1912)






T99 Sights & Scenes of the World

.



Plus, here are more Gold-Border Tobacco issues......

T56 Emblems....50 cards

T57 Fables....100 cards

T69 Historic Homes....50 cards


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 11-13-2016 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2016, 01:14 PM
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This thread reminds me of a movie I watched last night. Someone was looking into a mystery and a guy in the movie kept trying to misdirect them by talking about other stuff.

Can we fast forward to the end? Ted knows why Wood and Blair aren't in the T205 set! Spill it, Ted...let everyone in on the secret!
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2016, 01:51 PM
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Default It Takes a Village Idiot

I have no real answers, but here are examples of the 3 T205 style artwork (Blair, Wood, and Killifer) that was not included in the T205 set for whatever dang reason.

Brian (Bob Ewing has never been nor never will be a member of the T205 Village People, no matter how defaced one makes him)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg t205art258.jpg (77.0 KB, 216 views)
File Type: jpg t205villagepeople923 (168x249).jpg (36.2 KB, 211 views)

Last edited by brianp-beme; 11-13-2016 at 01:51 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2016, 08:28 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z28jd View Post
This thread reminds me of a movie I watched last night. Someone was looking into a mystery and a guy in the movie kept trying to misdirect them by talking about other stuff.

Can we fast forward to the end? Ted knows why Wood and Blair aren't in the T205 set! Spill it, Ted...let everyone in on the secret!

Yea John I know why....but, I aint going to tell you

But, why are you guys singling out Wood and Blair ?

What is the more significant ? is why aren't Joe Jackson and Casey Stengel in the T205 (or T206) sets ?

They are in the T210 set which was printed in 1910 ? ?

Answer that one for me, will you....


TED Z
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:50 PM
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Contract disputes

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
....

What is the more significant ? is why aren't Joe Jackson and Casey Stengel in the T205 (or T206) sets ?

They are in the T210 set which was printed in 1910 ? ?

Answer that one for me, will you....


TED Z
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2016, 10:27 AM
steve B steve B is online now
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It could be the lead time and other timing as well. Getting all the artwork done from an available photo would take time, and they were pretty much done with minor leaguers in T206 before 1911. Southern leaguers would probably have been set and art done before the end of 1909.

T205s ended too early for Stengel and it appears they ended T205s before they intended. Maybe there was art done, but there isn't enough minor league selection in the set to guess.

Jackson moved around a lot, 08-10 he was with three different minor league teams as well as getting in a few games in the majors. It's possible they didn't have a picture they felt they could use until 1910. A total crazy guess was that they wanted to include him but the same sort of contract thing that Plank may have been involved with affected him as well.


As an aside, my wifes relative started with Greenville in 1909. A fact I'm pretty happy about since that means if I find a team photo Jackson won't be in it and I just might be able to afford it.

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Old 11-16-2016, 04:44 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
It could be the lead time and other timing as well. Getting all the artwork done from an available photo would take time, and they were pretty much done with minor leaguers in T206 before 1911. Southern leaguers would probably have been set and art done before the end of 1909.

Jackson moved around a lot, 08-10 he was with three different minor league teams as well as getting in a few games in the majors. It's possible they didn't have a picture they felt they could use until 1910. A total crazy guess was that they wanted to include him but the same sort of contract thing that Plank may have been involved with affected him as well.

Steve B
Steve

I have to differ with you regarding "Shoeless" Joe Jackson. As I am sure you know, Joe has the record for the highest BA (.408 with 233 Hits) for a rookie player.
He accomplished this playing a full season with Cleveland in 1911.

American Litho was still designing and printing T205's well into the 1911 season. Evidence of this is found by reading the Bios on certain T205 cards, namely the
12 - Minor Leaguers......


.


.



TED Z
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  #13  
Old 11-17-2016, 10:31 AM
steve B steve B is online now
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That's true, but aside from a few cards like the T202s and maybe the piedmont art stamps? - Haven't checked to see if those have any T205 art that didn't make T205- we don't know what players they were planning on doing.

And with almost 200 designs that didn't get done there's plenty of room for Jackson.

If you read the bios on the minor leaguers closely, one thing that stands out is that the bios reflect events in 1911 up to about early August. But where there was a trade the fronts show the player with the team they started the season with. So the front art was probably done before the season began, and the backs were done much closer to the time the cards were printed. So there may have been a 5 month or longer delay between the front art being done and the printing /issuing of some cards.

With August being a bit late in the season and the series only about halfway done I'd have to wonder why. Could there have been production problems that slowed the issuing? Probably not, ALC had plenty of experience. Or maybe the series wasn't successful and other stuff was being tried? More likely the chaos of breaking up the company slowed all their promotional efforts.
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Old 11-17-2016, 10:50 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's true, but aside from a few cards like the T202s
Steve....speaking about T202's....I find it very puzzling that Joe Jackson was not featured in the 1912 T202 set ? ?

What's your explanation of this omission ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
More likely the chaos of breaking up the company slowed all their promotional efforts.
Steve....the anti-trust divestiture applied to ATC.... not ALC.


TED Z
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2016, 04:10 PM
steve B steve B is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Steve....speaking about T202's....I find it very puzzling that Joe Jackson was not featured in the 1912 T202 set ? ?

What's your explanation of this omission ?




Steve....the anti-trust divestiture applied to ATC.... not ALC.


TED Z
.
Jackson not being in T202 is something I could only guess at. And it wouldn't be a guess I'd have a lot of confidence in. Probably something to do with money or some other contract issue.


I did mean ATCs breakup. With the breakup being negotiated and sometimes no solid idea exactly what was happening they may have been hesitant to run a promotion that might have to be recalled or cancelled altogether, perhaps even before it could be released.

What did get issued in the later parts of 1911 was probably what they'd already committed to buy from ALC.

Steve B
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's true, but aside from a few cards like the T202s and maybe the piedmont art stamps? - Haven't checked to see if those have any T205 art that didn't make T205- we don't know what players they were planning on doing.
The two T202 end panels and the one Piedmont Art Stamp shown in my previous post are the only examples of T205 artwork seen in other issues and that are not in the T205 set. It certainly seems like they would have had other artwork in production (to reach that 400 subjects claim) that just didn't end up seeing the light of day.

The mustachioed Ewing was just for fun, in case there was any confusion. The Village People were a 1970's construct, complete with the construction guy, although I think Ewing is imitating the cop.

Brian

Last edited by brianp-beme; 11-17-2016 at 05:49 PM. Reason: added shown in my previous post
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Old 11-18-2016, 09:52 AM
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Jackson is sliding in one of the middle panels....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Steve....speaking about T202's....I find it very puzzling that Joe Jackson was not featured in the 1912 T202 set ? ?

What's your explanation of this omission ?

Steve....the anti-trust divestiture applied to ATC.... not ALC.


TED Z
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Old 11-18-2016, 10:25 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Jackson is sliding in one of the middle panels....

Hi Leon

Yep, I hesitated showing my T202 card of " Jackson sliding " in the centerfold since it has become such a controversial subject....anyhow here it is.






Personally, I think it is Joe Jax in this T202 centerfold (the backdrop is without a doubt Cleveland Stadium and the facial features, especially the ears,
are those of Jackson's).


TED Z
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